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> Before technology we lived in feudalism. There exists the possibility we have technology and feudalism. It also depends on how you define "technology": was/

> Before technology we lived in feudalism. There exists the possibility we have technology and feudalism. It also depends on how you define "technology": was/is the plough "technology"? The bow and arrow? Blacksmithing forge? Anvil? Water wheels? The wheel? The stirrup?

JumpCrisscross 2y ago
> There exists the possibility we have technology and feudalism There exists the possibility of many things. The Pope made an appeal to empiricism. In our timeline, industrialisation brought forth a burst in democracy and the downfall of feudalism.
- throw0101c 2y ago
  > In our timeline, industrialisation brought forth a burst in democracy and the downfall of feudalism. Not everywhere: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Industrialization_in_the_Soviet_Union https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Industrialization_in_the_Sovie... * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Leap_Forward https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Leap_Forward It should also be noted that the Industrial Revolution occurred in the early 1800s: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Industrial_Revolution https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Industrial_Revolution Democracy was already around by then: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parliament_of_the_United_Kingdom https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parliament_of_the_United_Kingd... * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Revolution https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Revolution I think it is more accurate to say the the presence of democracy was part of the environment that allowed industrialization to occur. It was (e.g.) UK acts of Parliament that developed canals and later railroads: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_British_canal_system#The_Industrial_Revolution https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_British_canal_s...
  - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
    > Democracy was already around by then Democracy was around millennia ago. The frequency of democracy increased after industrialisation, in part due to its effects on the middle class. Britain and America’s democracies expanded because of it; Europe’s finally found purchase and, in the post-colonial era, so did other continents. > the presence of democracy was part of the environment that allowed industrialization to occur Probably not [1]. [1] https://acoup.blog/2022/08/26/collections-why-no-roman-industrial-revolution/ https://acoup.blog/2022/08/26/collections-why-no-roman-indus...
  - keybored 2y ago
    > I think it is more accurate to say the the presence of democracy was part of the environment that allowed industrialization to occur. That capitalism causes democracy is so high-level that it’s just a propaganda line. People from Marxists to neoliberals could say the same thing (meaning different things when interrogated).
    - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
      > That capitalism causes democracy is so high-level that it’s just a propaganda line. People from Marxists to neoliberals could say the same thing We have no evidence capitalism causes democracy. But every democracy on the planet emerged from a context with private property and the rule of law.
      - keybored 2y ago
        Democracy is older than political liberalism and its accompanying capitalism.
        JumpCrisscross 2y ago
        > Democracy is older than political liberalism and its accompanying capitalism The Athenians and Romans weren’t capitalist. But they were closer to it than Marxism or neoliberalism. (They both had private property, money in elections, trade, finance, et cetera.)
        keybored 2y ago
        > The Athenians and Romans weren’t capitalist. False premise. > But they were closer to it than Marxism or neoliberalism. (They both had private property, money in elections, trade, finance, et cetera.) Just false.
kouru225 2y ago
Ok, but the fact remains that in the past inequality was strictly enforced, while inequality in modern times has been systematically enforced. So I want numbers that show me that technology has increased wealth inequality.

JumpCrisscross 2y ago

> There exists the possibility we have technology and feudalism There exists the possibility of many things. The Pope made an appeal to empiricism. In our timeline, industrialisation brought forth a burst in democracy and the downfall of feudalism.

throw0101c 2y ago
> In our timeline, industrialisation brought forth a burst in democracy and the downfall of feudalism. Not everywhere: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Industrialization_in_the_Soviet_Union https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Industrialization_in_the_Sovie... * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Leap_Forward https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Leap_Forward It should also be noted that the Industrial Revolution occurred in the early 1800s: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Industrial_Revolution https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Industrial_Revolution Democracy was already around by then: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parliament_of_the_United_Kingdom https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parliament_of_the_United_Kingd... * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Revolution https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Revolution I think it is more accurate to say the the presence of democracy was part of the environment that allowed industrialization to occur. It was (e.g.) UK acts of Parliament that developed canals and later railroads: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_British_canal_system#The_Industrial_Revolution https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_British_canal_s...
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago
  > Democracy was already around by then Democracy was around millennia ago. The frequency of democracy increased after industrialisation, in part due to its effects on the middle class. Britain and America’s democracies expanded because of it; Europe’s finally found purchase and, in the post-colonial era, so did other continents. > the presence of democracy was part of the environment that allowed industrialization to occur Probably not [1]. [1] https://acoup.blog/2022/08/26/collections-why-no-roman-industrial-revolution/ https://acoup.blog/2022/08/26/collections-why-no-roman-indus...
- keybored 2y ago
  > I think it is more accurate to say the the presence of democracy was part of the environment that allowed industrialization to occur. That capitalism causes democracy is so high-level that it’s just a propaganda line. People from Marxists to neoliberals could say the same thing (meaning different things when interrogated).
  - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
    > That capitalism causes democracy is so high-level that it’s just a propaganda line. People from Marxists to neoliberals could say the same thing We have no evidence capitalism causes democracy. But every democracy on the planet emerged from a context with private property and the rule of law.
    - keybored 2y ago
      Democracy is older than political liberalism and its accompanying capitalism.
      - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
        > Democracy is older than political liberalism and its accompanying capitalism The Athenians and Romans weren’t capitalist. But they were closer to it than Marxism or neoliberalism. (They both had private property, money in elections, trade, finance, et cetera.)
        keybored 2y ago
        > The Athenians and Romans weren’t capitalist. False premise. > But they were closer to it than Marxism or neoliberalism. (They both had private property, money in elections, trade, finance, et cetera.) Just false.

kouru225 2y ago

Ok, but the fact remains that in the past inequality was strictly enforced, while inequality in modern times has been systematically enforced. So I want numbers that show me that technology has increased wealth inequality.