5 ms·

Nah I want to see the numbers on this. Before technology we lived in feudalism. There’s no more unequal system than that.

Thorrez 2y ago
"Technology" is a very broad term. The wheel is a type of technology. Pope Francis specifically said "digital technologies".
stephenhuey 2y ago
"We" lived in feudalism? Do you speak for the entire world? Remember that there were peoples that were conquered by industrialist empires who had more equal systems than feudalism or than what we have right now. Communities in the Amazon or isolated Pacific or African islands (and deserts in Africa) have had more equal societies than the USA today and arguably were quite happy till their partway-utopia was wrecked by technologically advanced people. This gives me little hope for people pitching AI leading us into a better society unless the hearts of the people with the power are trustworthy and faithful to promoting good for people rather than profit for themselves.
- grahamj 2y ago
  > This gives me little hope for people pitching AI leading us into a better society unless the hearts of the people with the power are trustworthy and faithful to promoting good for people rather than profit for themselves. Agree. I see parallels to communism: in theory it sounds alright - spread the wealth, everyone works for the collective etc. - but in practise it doesn’t work because people are greedy and leaders inevitably become dictators. With AI it’s similar in that in theory it could be impartial and level playing fields, but in practise they will be run by companies and governments where the same old human fallibilities persist. If you can’t trust the leaders then you can’t trust their machines either.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
keybored 2y ago
“Feudalism” is not data/numbers either.
throw0101c 2y ago
> Before technology we lived in feudalism. There exists the possibility we have technology and feudalism. It also depends on how you define "technology": was/is the plough "technology"? The bow and arrow? Blacksmithing forge? Anvil? Water wheels? The wheel? The stirrup?
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago
  > There exists the possibility we have technology and feudalism There exists the possibility of many things. The Pope made an appeal to empiricism. In our timeline, industrialisation brought forth a burst in democracy and the downfall of feudalism.
  - throw0101c 2y ago
    > In our timeline, industrialisation brought forth a burst in democracy and the downfall of feudalism. Not everywhere: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Industrialization_in_the_Soviet_Union https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Industrialization_in_the_Sovie... * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Leap_Forward https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Leap_Forward It should also be noted that the Industrial Revolution occurred in the early 1800s: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Industrial_Revolution https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Industrial_Revolution Democracy was already around by then: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parliament_of_the_United_Kingdom https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parliament_of_the_United_Kingd... * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Revolution https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Revolution I think it is more accurate to say the the presence of democracy was part of the environment that allowed industrialization to occur. It was (e.g.) UK acts of Parliament that developed canals and later railroads: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_British_canal_system#The_Industrial_Revolution https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_British_canal_s...
    - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
      > Democracy was already around by then Democracy was around millennia ago. The frequency of democracy increased after industrialisation, in part due to its effects on the middle class. Britain and America’s democracies expanded because of it; Europe’s finally found purchase and, in the post-colonial era, so did other continents. > the presence of democracy was part of the environment that allowed industrialization to occur Probably not [1]. [1] https://acoup.blog/2022/08/26/collections-why-no-roman-industrial-revolution/ https://acoup.blog/2022/08/26/collections-why-no-roman-indus...

Thorrez 2y ago

"Technology" is a very broad term. The wheel is a type of technology. Pope Francis specifically said "digital technologies".

stephenhuey 2y ago

"We" lived in feudalism? Do you speak for the entire world? Remember that there were peoples that were conquered by industrialist empires who had more equal systems than feudalism or than what we have right now. Communities in the Amazon or isolated Pacific or African islands (and deserts in Africa) have had more equal societies than the USA today and arguably were quite happy till their partway-utopia was wrecked by technologically advanced people. This gives me little hope for people pitching AI leading us into a better society unless the hearts of the people with the power are trustworthy and faithful to promoting good for people rather than profit for themselves.

grahamj 2y ago
> This gives me little hope for people pitching AI leading us into a better society unless the hearts of the people with the power are trustworthy and faithful to promoting good for people rather than profit for themselves. Agree. I see parallels to communism: in theory it sounds alright - spread the wealth, everyone works for the collective etc. - but in practise it doesn’t work because people are greedy and leaders inevitably become dictators. With AI it’s similar in that in theory it could be impartial and level playing fields, but in practise they will be run by companies and governments where the same old human fallibilities persist. If you can’t trust the leaders then you can’t trust their machines either.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]

keybored 2y ago

“Feudalism” is not data/numbers either.

throw0101c 2y ago

> Before technology we lived in feudalism. There exists the possibility we have technology and feudalism. It also depends on how you define "technology": was/is the plough "technology"? The bow and arrow? Blacksmithing forge? Anvil? Water wheels? The wheel? The stirrup?

JumpCrisscross 2y ago
> There exists the possibility we have technology and feudalism There exists the possibility of many things. The Pope made an appeal to empiricism. In our timeline, industrialisation brought forth a burst in democracy and the downfall of feudalism.
- throw0101c 2y ago
  > In our timeline, industrialisation brought forth a burst in democracy and the downfall of feudalism. Not everywhere: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Industrialization_in_the_Soviet_Union https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Industrialization_in_the_Sovie... * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Leap_Forward https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Leap_Forward It should also be noted that the Industrial Revolution occurred in the early 1800s: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Industrial_Revolution https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Industrial_Revolution Democracy was already around by then: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parliament_of_the_United_Kingdom https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parliament_of_the_United_Kingd... * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Revolution https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Revolution I think it is more accurate to say the the presence of democracy was part of the environment that allowed industrialization to occur. It was (e.g.) UK acts of Parliament that developed canals and later railroads: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_British_canal_system#The_Industrial_Revolution https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_British_canal_s...
  - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
    > Democracy was already around by then Democracy was around millennia ago. The frequency of democracy increased after industrialisation, in part due to its effects on the middle class. Britain and America’s democracies expanded because of it; Europe’s finally found purchase and, in the post-colonial era, so did other continents. > the presence of democracy was part of the environment that allowed industrialization to occur Probably not [1]. [1] https://acoup.blog/2022/08/26/collections-why-no-roman-industrial-revolution/ https://acoup.blog/2022/08/26/collections-why-no-roman-indus...