4 ms·

> Are there some specific examples of where you have to have a smartphone? Try getting a job without a smartphone. Try getting government services without a c

> Are there some specific examples of where you have to have a smartphone? Try getting a job without a smartphone. Try getting government services without a computer. Try getting anything without a phone at all. You can't even walk into a physical brick-and-mortar business without them worrying about being defrauded. We built a high trust society and then threw away the trust part.

scarface_74 2y ago
> Try getting government services without a computer. That computer only needs a browser. Surely as an HN commenter you know the solution for having a computer that you don’t want to run software by BigTech on it. I know older people who will still walk into the various government offices and utility offices when needed
- inetknght 2y ago
  > > Try getting government services without a computer. > Surely as an HN commenter you know the solution for having a computer that you don’t want to run software by BigTech on it. Yup. I speak from experience. See my other reply [0] to you. [0]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42879665 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42879665 > I know older people who will still walk into the various government offices and utility offices when needed Yup. I speak from experience. Government services and private utilities in Texas require email addresses. They require phone numbers. If you don't have a computer, you're definitely not going to get the emails in a timely fashion. If you don't have a phone, you're not going to receive phone calls or texts. Good luck to homeless! When you do have a computer, the government services offload your information to a private third party. You are required to do this to enroll in government services, and that private entity has its own license agreement whose jurisdiction is not even in Texas. If you have a disagreement, good luck getting to Idaho to file a dispute when you can't afford groceries. And all of your private information is made available to the lowest bidder.
  - scarface_74 2y ago
    I looked at the various utility companies in Texas. They all have in office support. Are you really telling me that senior citizens are not getting utilities if they don’t have an email address? They require home phone numbers. And you are talking about owning a phone - not a smart phone. Here is a feature phone for you https://www.t-mobile.com/cell-phone/tcl-flip-go https://www.t-mobile.com/cell-phone/tcl-flip-go
hn_throwaway_99 2y ago
This is such a straw man. Yes, I agree you need a computer with Internet access, but otherwise: 1. At least where I leave, local libraries provide a ton of support for people who need help using a computer: free access to computers, the Internet, popular applications, and instruction on how to use them. 2. You still haven't given any evidence on why you need a smartphone. 2. Yes, society changes, and as part of those changes you need access to new tools. When I was a kid in the 80s in the US, you needed to have a car and you needed to have a phone. At this point, PCs have been commonplace for nearly 40 years. I'm not saying that change is easy, but this idea that people are helpless and there aren't avenues to get access to the tools they need is BS in my opinion.
- inetknght 2y ago
  > This is such a straw man. Perhaps, but I don't agree with you. It's an expression of frustration about my own personal experiences. > At least where I leave, local libraries provide a ton of support for people who need help using a computer That's a good point. I haven't (yet) looked at my local libraries to see how functional they are. I'll do that within the next month though. > You still haven't given any evidence on why you need a smartphone. I shouldn't need evidence for why you need a smartphone when I am arguing that you shouldn't need a smartphone. But ok: try signing up for any service with SMS-based 2FA required; banks come to mind, many other online services. Guess you "need" a smartphone unless you don't want to do online banking. It's further crazy that SMS-based 2FA actually decreases security. > Yes, society changes, and as part of those changes you need access to new tools. When I was a kid in the 80s in the US, you needed to have a car and you needed to have a phone. Changes in society should not require you to follow those changes yourself. The requirement for a car is strictly a negative aspect of society, and very much a USA-based problem induced by not fostering public transit while also fostering sprawling urban/suburban environments. And that requirement is also a self-reinforcing lock-in: if you don't have a car then you can't afford to get a good job and without a good job you can't afford to move somewhere that a car is not required. Today it's very much still that way, with the exception of remote work which is very much in danger of being destroyed by oligarchs. And for phone; well I distinctly recall many homes had phones shared by the whole family. You didn't need a phone per-se, you could easily borrow your own, or your neighbor's/friend's phone number and they'd take messages for you. Still can today, except that there's a lot more assumption about one-phone-to-one-real-person today. > I'm not saying that change is easy, but this idea that people are helpless and there aren't avenues to get access to the tools they need is BS in my opinion. I'm not saying people are helpless and there aren't avenues to get access to the tools they need. I'm saying the tools they need have been perverted beyond belief so that someone who has different morals no longer feels safe using the tools they need. You can't say the same about cars in the 80s. Yes you might have actually needed a car, but the car was yours and didn't spy on you. Yes you might have actually needed a personal phone number and you could count on it being monitored by the government or with a warrant, but your conversations weren't data mined by and sold to third parties who you've never even heard of let alone done business with.

scarface_74 2y ago

> Try getting government services without a computer. That computer only needs a browser. Surely as an HN commenter you know the solution for having a computer that you don’t want to run software by BigTech on it. I know older people who will still walk into the various government offices and utility offices when needed

inetknght 2y ago
> > Try getting government services without a computer. > Surely as an HN commenter you know the solution for having a computer that you don’t want to run software by BigTech on it. Yup. I speak from experience. See my other reply [0] to you. [0]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42879665 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42879665 > I know older people who will still walk into the various government offices and utility offices when needed Yup. I speak from experience. Government services and private utilities in Texas require email addresses. They require phone numbers. If you don't have a computer, you're definitely not going to get the emails in a timely fashion. If you don't have a phone, you're not going to receive phone calls or texts. Good luck to homeless! When you do have a computer, the government services offload your information to a private third party. You are required to do this to enroll in government services, and that private entity has its own license agreement whose jurisdiction is not even in Texas. If you have a disagreement, good luck getting to Idaho to file a dispute when you can't afford groceries. And all of your private information is made available to the lowest bidder.
- scarface_74 2y ago
  I looked at the various utility companies in Texas. They all have in office support. Are you really telling me that senior citizens are not getting utilities if they don’t have an email address? They require home phone numbers. And you are talking about owning a phone - not a smart phone. Here is a feature phone for you https://www.t-mobile.com/cell-phone/tcl-flip-go https://www.t-mobile.com/cell-phone/tcl-flip-go

hn_throwaway_99 2y ago

This is such a straw man. Yes, I agree you need a computer with Internet access, but otherwise: 1. At least where I leave, local libraries provide a ton of support for people who need help using a computer: free access to computers, the Internet, popular applications, and instruction on how to use them. 2. You still haven't given any evidence on why you need a smartphone. 2. Yes, society changes, and as part of those changes you need access to new tools. When I was a kid in the 80s in the US, you needed to have a car and you needed to have a phone. At this point, PCs have been commonplace for nearly 40 years. I'm not saying that change is easy, but this idea that people are helpless and there aren't avenues to get access to the tools they need is BS in my opinion.

inetknght 2y ago
> This is such a straw man. Perhaps, but I don't agree with you. It's an expression of frustration about my own personal experiences. > At least where I leave, local libraries provide a ton of support for people who need help using a computer That's a good point. I haven't (yet) looked at my local libraries to see how functional they are. I'll do that within the next month though. > You still haven't given any evidence on why you need a smartphone. I shouldn't need evidence for why you need a smartphone when I am arguing that you shouldn't need a smartphone. But ok: try signing up for any service with SMS-based 2FA required; banks come to mind, many other online services. Guess you "need" a smartphone unless you don't want to do online banking. It's further crazy that SMS-based 2FA actually decreases security. > Yes, society changes, and as part of those changes you need access to new tools. When I was a kid in the 80s in the US, you needed to have a car and you needed to have a phone. Changes in society should not require you to follow those changes yourself. The requirement for a car is strictly a negative aspect of society, and very much a USA-based problem induced by not fostering public transit while also fostering sprawling urban/suburban environments. And that requirement is also a self-reinforcing lock-in: if you don't have a car then you can't afford to get a good job and without a good job you can't afford to move somewhere that a car is not required. Today it's very much still that way, with the exception of remote work which is very much in danger of being destroyed by oligarchs. And for phone; well I distinctly recall many homes had phones shared by the whole family. You didn't need a phone per-se, you could easily borrow your own, or your neighbor's/friend's phone number and they'd take messages for you. Still can today, except that there's a lot more assumption about one-phone-to-one-real-person today. > I'm not saying that change is easy, but this idea that people are helpless and there aren't avenues to get access to the tools they need is BS in my opinion. I'm not saying people are helpless and there aren't avenues to get access to the tools they need. I'm saying the tools they need have been perverted beyond belief so that someone who has different morals no longer feels safe using the tools they need. You can't say the same about cars in the 80s. Yes you might have actually needed a car, but the car was yours and didn't spy on you. Yes you might have actually needed a personal phone number and you could count on it being monitored by the government or with a warrant, but your conversations weren't data mined by and sold to third parties who you've never even heard of let alone done business with.