4 ms·

This might seem unique or unusual, but technology has been intertwined with religion since well, forever, especially if we consider the book to be a form of tec

This might seem unique or unusual, but technology has been intertwined with religion since well, forever, especially if we consider the book to be a form of technology. Personally one of my favorite historical topics is how the printing press had a huge impact on the Reformation. With the Internet more broadly I think we are in the midst of a second “Reformation” in terms of information sources, the media, etc. Another cool example is Lewis Mumford’s argument that the industrial age actually started with monks creating rudimentary clocks and organizing life according to specific times in order to achieve their monkish ends. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technics_and_Civilization https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technics_and_Civilization

fakedang 2y ago
Technology works well for decentralized religions, like Protestantism and Judaism, where there is no overarching authority on scripture, or where there are multiple entities competing for believers' attention that the majority choose to focus on scientific dogma instead. Once there's a central authority at risk from technology eroding at their base, they will be undermined. Like Catholicism, Islam, the Orthodox Church, etc. all of which were practically sidelined when print and media became more prevalent. Interestingly all 3 of the above examples maintain strict conditions that their respective holy books must not be translated into the local languages.
- svieira 2y ago
  > all 3 of the above examples maintain strict conditions that their respective holy books must not be translated into the local languages Congratulations, you're one of today's lucky 10,000! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glagolitic_script https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glagolitic_script > The Glagolitic script (/ˌɡlæɡəˈlɪtɪk/ GLAG-ə-LIT-ik,[2] ⰳⰾⰰⰳⱁⰾⰻⱌⰰ, glagolitsa) is the oldest known Slavic alphabet. It is generally agreed that it was created in the 9th century for the purpose of _translating_ liturgical texts into Old Church Slavonic by Saint Cyril, a monk from Thessalonica. He and his brother Saint Methodius were sent by the Byzantine Emperor Michael III in 863 to Great Moravia to spread Christianity there. The Catholic and Orthodox churches have _always_ striven to make the Scriptures available to the people in languages they could understand.
  - fakedang 2y ago
    > The Catholic and Orthodox churches have _always_ striven to make the Scriptures available to the people in languages they could understand. The first effort of the Catholic Church to translate the bible happened during the papacy of Pope Pius XII, which began in _1939_. They didn't encourage it before that, but it took the Protestant Reformation and the Council of Trent (1545-1563) to decide that Bible translators would not be prosecuted. The first sanctioned English translation happened in 1582, a full 1500 years and some more after Christianity was founded, in the backdrop of the Thirty Years War. Also remind me, which languages are these religions' respective services conducted in?
    - achierius 2y ago
      > The first effort of the Catholic Church to translate the bible happened during the papacy of Pope Pius XII I struggle to see how this is anything but a direct lie. Even ignoring that the Church's translation of the Vulgate itself (from the original Greek and Hebrew) took place in the 4th century, the first _Catholic French_ translation was published in 1550, and there was never a question of whether to persecute the authors. You might say, but that was because of the Reformation -- then consider the Alfonsine Bible, composed in 1280 under the supervision a Catholic King and the master of a Catholic holy order. Well before then there were partial translations too: the Wessex Gospels were translated in 990, and to quote Victoria Thompson "although the Church reserved Latin for the most sacred liturgical moments almost every other religious text was available in English by the eleventh century". So the longest period you can get where the Church was not actively translating texts was c. 400 - c. 900, a period you probably know as the "Dark Ages" specifically thanks to the fact that literary sources of all kinds were scarce, in no small part because the resources to compose large texts simply weren't there. Especially when you consider that those who could read and write generally knew how to read and write Latin -- vernacular literacy only became important later, with the increase in the number of e.g. merchants and scribes -- such translations held little value during that period.
- throw0101c 2y ago
  > […] Like Catholicism […] Interestingly all 3 of the above examples maintain strict conditions that their respective holy books must not be translated into the local languages. Strange then that the Pope asked someone to translate the Christian Bible—originally written in Koine Greek—into Latin, the lingua franca of the Western Mediterranean: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vulgate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vulgate
  - fakedang 2y ago
    Even strange then that William Tyndale was executed for his opposition to the church, largely through his translation work. > Tyndale's translations were the first English Scriptures to draw directly from Hebrew and Greek texts, the first English translation to take advantage of the printing press, the first of the new English Bibles of the Reformation, and the first English translation to use Jehovah ("Iehouah") as God's name.[a] It was taken to be a direct challenge to the authority of the Catholic Church and of those laws of England maintaining the Church's position. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Tyndale https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Tyndale Fun fact, every English Bible you see today draws from this bloke's work. And you all executed him lol.
    - throw0101c 2y ago
      > Even strange then that William Tyndale was executed for his opposition to the church, largely through his translation work. Nothing about translation work: > In Tyndale's case, he was held in prison for a year and a half: his Roman Catholic inquisitor, Jacobus Latomus, gave him the opportunity to write a book stating his views; Latomus wrote a book in response to convince him of his errors; Tyndale wrote two in reply; Latomus wrote two further books in response to Tyndale. Latomus' three books were subsequently published as one volume: in these it can be seen that the discussion on heresy revolves around the contents of three other books Tyndale had written on topics like justification by faith, free will, the denial of the soul, and so on. Latomus makes no mention of Bible translation; indeed, it seems that in prison, Tyndale was allowed to continue making translations from the Hebrew.[40] Thomas Cromwell was involved in some intercession or plans such as extradition.[41]:220 > When Tyndale could not be convinced to abjure, he was handed over to the Brabantine secular arm and tried on charges of Lutheran heresy in 1536. The charges did not mention Bible translation, which was not illegal in the Netherlands.[40]: 317, 321 * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Tyndale#Betrayal_and_death https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Tyndale#Betrayal_and_d...
- bb86754 2y ago
  Pretty much everything you said here doesn't align with history. And if anything, Catholics are more inclined to agree that the Bible is a product of human writing and translation because they don't agree with the Protestant doctrine of Sola scriptura. Also, Catholics consider the Orthodox church to be in communion with Rome - they don't consider it a different religion and aren't opposed to the Bible being translated into vernacular languages. No idea where that came from.
  - fakedang 2y ago
    There was a time during the Reformation when they were actively burning Bible translations and executing priests who were translating Bibles. And remind me which language church services in the Latin rite are conducted in to this day?
    - red_trumpet 2y ago
      > And remind me which language church services in the Latin rite are conducted in to this day? In Germany, typical catholic church services are held in German.
    - achierius 2y ago
      > There was a time during the Reformation when they were actively burning Bible translations and executing priests who were translating Bibles First of all, I do not know of many (any?) cases of people being executed for translating a Bible, despite that being a crime at certain points in time. Generally the given reason was for unrepentant heresy -- e.g. someone has pointed out elsewhere that what we know about Wycliffe's trial and inquisition essentially leaves out his translation entirely, focusing instead on the doctrines he espoused. You seem to have the apprehension that there were just dozens of people being thrown on the fires over this, but that's just really not the case. Translation was banned as a blanket measure to control the spread of known heretical translations (e.g. for the Oxford Synod, the Tyndale Bible), it was not a serious concern in and of itself. > And remind me which language church services in the Latin rite are conducted in to this day? Do you mean the Roman Rite? There is no such thing as a "Latin Rite". The distinction is important because the language most Roman Catholic services are conducted in is the vernacular one, and has been for 50+ years now. There are a handful of Latin masses (using the old Tridentine missal) still going on, but I think something like 98%+ are using the vernacular missal from Vatican II. And honestly, even before then... the Latin parts of the Mass were largely prayers which did not change, so you tended to pick them up, especially given that there were parts where you were supposed to speak as well. It's not too hard to memorize what "Et cum spiritu tuo" means. The gospel readings and homilies were themselves in the vernacular, since of course they were longer and meant to communicate teachings to the populace. So I don't understand what your problem is -- fixed prayers being said in vernacular is somehow antithetical to good religion? But regardless, if you want, today you can go and find a bajillion Catholic Churches doing English mass, or Spanish mass, or Chinese mass, or whatever language you're interested in.
- handfuloflight 2y ago
  > Interestingly all 3 of the above examples maintain strict conditions that their respective holy books must not be translated into the local languages. This is absolutely not the case for Islam. According to An-Nawawi, Al-Majmu', (Cairo, Matbacat at-'Tadamun n.d.), 380, at least a chapter of the Qur'an was translated to Persian by a companion of the Prophet ﷺ. This would have been forbidden by the Prophet if translating the scripture was haram in principle.
jcarrano 2y ago
That book, and the follow up "Pentagon of Power" blew my mind when I read them years ago. I can't even enumerate how many topics it discusses. 100% recommended reading.

fakedang 2y ago

Technology works well for decentralized religions, like Protestantism and Judaism, where there is no overarching authority on scripture, or where there are multiple entities competing for believers' attention that the majority choose to focus on scientific dogma instead. Once there's a central authority at risk from technology eroding at their base, they will be undermined. Like Catholicism, Islam, the Orthodox Church, etc. all of which were practically sidelined when print and media became more prevalent. Interestingly all 3 of the above examples maintain strict conditions that their respective holy books must not be translated into the local languages.

svieira 2y ago
> all 3 of the above examples maintain strict conditions that their respective holy books must not be translated into the local languages Congratulations, you're one of today's lucky 10,000! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glagolitic_script https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glagolitic_script > The Glagolitic script (/ˌɡlæɡəˈlɪtɪk/ GLAG-ə-LIT-ik,[2] ⰳⰾⰰⰳⱁⰾⰻⱌⰰ, glagolitsa) is the oldest known Slavic alphabet. It is generally agreed that it was created in the 9th century for the purpose of _translating_ liturgical texts into Old Church Slavonic by Saint Cyril, a monk from Thessalonica. He and his brother Saint Methodius were sent by the Byzantine Emperor Michael III in 863 to Great Moravia to spread Christianity there. The Catholic and Orthodox churches have _always_ striven to make the Scriptures available to the people in languages they could understand.
- fakedang 2y ago
  > The Catholic and Orthodox churches have _always_ striven to make the Scriptures available to the people in languages they could understand. The first effort of the Catholic Church to translate the bible happened during the papacy of Pope Pius XII, which began in _1939_. They didn't encourage it before that, but it took the Protestant Reformation and the Council of Trent (1545-1563) to decide that Bible translators would not be prosecuted. The first sanctioned English translation happened in 1582, a full 1500 years and some more after Christianity was founded, in the backdrop of the Thirty Years War. Also remind me, which languages are these religions' respective services conducted in?
  - achierius 2y ago
    > The first effort of the Catholic Church to translate the bible happened during the papacy of Pope Pius XII I struggle to see how this is anything but a direct lie. Even ignoring that the Church's translation of the Vulgate itself (from the original Greek and Hebrew) took place in the 4th century, the first _Catholic French_ translation was published in 1550, and there was never a question of whether to persecute the authors. You might say, but that was because of the Reformation -- then consider the Alfonsine Bible, composed in 1280 under the supervision a Catholic King and the master of a Catholic holy order. Well before then there were partial translations too: the Wessex Gospels were translated in 990, and to quote Victoria Thompson "although the Church reserved Latin for the most sacred liturgical moments almost every other religious text was available in English by the eleventh century". So the longest period you can get where the Church was not actively translating texts was c. 400 - c. 900, a period you probably know as the "Dark Ages" specifically thanks to the fact that literary sources of all kinds were scarce, in no small part because the resources to compose large texts simply weren't there. Especially when you consider that those who could read and write generally knew how to read and write Latin -- vernacular literacy only became important later, with the increase in the number of e.g. merchants and scribes -- such translations held little value during that period.
throw0101c 2y ago
> […] Like Catholicism […] Interestingly all 3 of the above examples maintain strict conditions that their respective holy books must not be translated into the local languages. Strange then that the Pope asked someone to translate the Christian Bible—originally written in Koine Greek—into Latin, the lingua franca of the Western Mediterranean: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vulgate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vulgate
- fakedang 2y ago
  Even strange then that William Tyndale was executed for his opposition to the church, largely through his translation work. > Tyndale's translations were the first English Scriptures to draw directly from Hebrew and Greek texts, the first English translation to take advantage of the printing press, the first of the new English Bibles of the Reformation, and the first English translation to use Jehovah ("Iehouah") as God's name.[a] It was taken to be a direct challenge to the authority of the Catholic Church and of those laws of England maintaining the Church's position. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Tyndale https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Tyndale Fun fact, every English Bible you see today draws from this bloke's work. And you all executed him lol.
  - throw0101c 2y ago
    > Even strange then that William Tyndale was executed for his opposition to the church, largely through his translation work. Nothing about translation work: > In Tyndale's case, he was held in prison for a year and a half: his Roman Catholic inquisitor, Jacobus Latomus, gave him the opportunity to write a book stating his views; Latomus wrote a book in response to convince him of his errors; Tyndale wrote two in reply; Latomus wrote two further books in response to Tyndale. Latomus' three books were subsequently published as one volume: in these it can be seen that the discussion on heresy revolves around the contents of three other books Tyndale had written on topics like justification by faith, free will, the denial of the soul, and so on. Latomus makes no mention of Bible translation; indeed, it seems that in prison, Tyndale was allowed to continue making translations from the Hebrew.[40] Thomas Cromwell was involved in some intercession or plans such as extradition.[41]:220 > When Tyndale could not be convinced to abjure, he was handed over to the Brabantine secular arm and tried on charges of Lutheran heresy in 1536. The charges did not mention Bible translation, which was not illegal in the Netherlands.[40]: 317, 321 * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Tyndale#Betrayal_and_death https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Tyndale#Betrayal_and_d...
bb86754 2y ago
Pretty much everything you said here doesn't align with history. And if anything, Catholics are more inclined to agree that the Bible is a product of human writing and translation because they don't agree with the Protestant doctrine of Sola scriptura. Also, Catholics consider the Orthodox church to be in communion with Rome - they don't consider it a different religion and aren't opposed to the Bible being translated into vernacular languages. No idea where that came from.
- fakedang 2y ago
  There was a time during the Reformation when they were actively burning Bible translations and executing priests who were translating Bibles. And remind me which language church services in the Latin rite are conducted in to this day?
  - red_trumpet 2y ago
    > And remind me which language church services in the Latin rite are conducted in to this day? In Germany, typical catholic church services are held in German.
  - achierius 2y ago
    > There was a time during the Reformation when they were actively burning Bible translations and executing priests who were translating Bibles First of all, I do not know of many (any?) cases of people being executed for translating a Bible, despite that being a crime at certain points in time. Generally the given reason was for unrepentant heresy -- e.g. someone has pointed out elsewhere that what we know about Wycliffe's trial and inquisition essentially leaves out his translation entirely, focusing instead on the doctrines he espoused. You seem to have the apprehension that there were just dozens of people being thrown on the fires over this, but that's just really not the case. Translation was banned as a blanket measure to control the spread of known heretical translations (e.g. for the Oxford Synod, the Tyndale Bible), it was not a serious concern in and of itself. > And remind me which language church services in the Latin rite are conducted in to this day? Do you mean the Roman Rite? There is no such thing as a "Latin Rite". The distinction is important because the language most Roman Catholic services are conducted in is the vernacular one, and has been for 50+ years now. There are a handful of Latin masses (using the old Tridentine missal) still going on, but I think something like 98%+ are using the vernacular missal from Vatican II. And honestly, even before then... the Latin parts of the Mass were largely prayers which did not change, so you tended to pick them up, especially given that there were parts where you were supposed to speak as well. It's not too hard to memorize what "Et cum spiritu tuo" means. The gospel readings and homilies were themselves in the vernacular, since of course they were longer and meant to communicate teachings to the populace. So I don't understand what your problem is -- fixed prayers being said in vernacular is somehow antithetical to good religion? But regardless, if you want, today you can go and find a bajillion Catholic Churches doing English mass, or Spanish mass, or Chinese mass, or whatever language you're interested in.
handfuloflight 2y ago
> Interestingly all 3 of the above examples maintain strict conditions that their respective holy books must not be translated into the local languages. This is absolutely not the case for Islam. According to An-Nawawi, Al-Majmu', (Cairo, Matbacat at-'Tadamun n.d.), 380, at least a chapter of the Qur'an was translated to Persian by a companion of the Prophet ﷺ. This would have been forbidden by the Prophet if translating the scripture was haram in principle.

jcarrano 2y ago

That book, and the follow up "Pentagon of Power" blew my mind when I read them years ago. I can't even enumerate how many topics it discusses. 100% recommended reading.