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Mankind seems to forget every lesson after two generations. Holocaust survivors are still with us, but the kind of nationalism that put them through that ordea

by pavlov 2y ago

Mankind seems to forget every lesson after two generations. Holocaust survivors are still with us, but the kind of nationalism that put them through that ordeal is on the rise again and is gaining popularity with teenagers. Technology could help, but right now it seems to be working the other way.

retrac 2y ago
> Technology could help, but right now it seems to be working the other way. If history does teach us anything, the moral ambiguity of technological progress is surely one of the lessons of the 20th century. I think it might be one of those lessons we're forgetting again after a couple generations!
- Nasrudith 2y ago
  Technology isn't morally ambiguous, it is a moral non-player. It would be obviously absurd to call rocks "immoral" because people can be bashed over the head with them. Ultimately there is no 'gun that only shoots bad people' type judgement possible from technology.
  - cma 2y ago
    Instructions for building a box anyone could pit together for $20 in common materials with a button that would end the world would be a fairly unambiguously evil artifact. H-bombs as a much more expensive version that is arguable thanks to the somewhat lasting peace they can be argued to have brought through MAD, but if it had turned out world enders were something anyone could easily throw together it would be a very different world, or non-world.
throw_pm23 2y ago
It may be because there are rarely such simplistic rule-based lessons. To your example, nationalism could be a great emancipatory force in one century and an instrument of great suffering in another. If there is some takeaway, then it must be more subtle than "nationalism=evil".
- pavlov 2y ago
  You’ll notice that I qualified it with “the kind of nationalism that…” I don’t have a problem with the kind of nationalism that gave European minority languages pride in their own culture and literature in the 19th century, for example. I do have a problem with the kind of nationalism exemplified by lots of 20th century European leaders from Kaiser Wilhelm II to Milosevic. The latter kind is sadly on the rise again. And the former isn’t endemic to nationalism. Everyone can have pride in their identity, it doesn’t need a state apparatus.
  - DiscourseFan 2y ago
    >Everyone can have pride in their identity, it doesn’t need a state apparatus. Well, you'd want to think so. But I wonder if all identities politics doesn't, in the end, trend towards fascism.
    - funcDropShadow 2y ago
      You don't have to wonder. Just observe what is going on in so-called liberal democracies of the world while identity politics is implemented by governments: censorship, redefinition of words, inventing new moral issues to shutdown inconvenient facts and such.

by pavlov 2y ago

retrac 2y ago

> Technology could help, but right now it seems to be working the other way. If history does teach us anything, the moral ambiguity of technological progress is surely one of the lessons of the 20th century. I think it might be one of those lessons we're forgetting again after a couple generations!

Nasrudith 2y ago
Technology isn't morally ambiguous, it is a moral non-player. It would be obviously absurd to call rocks "immoral" because people can be bashed over the head with them. Ultimately there is no 'gun that only shoots bad people' type judgement possible from technology.
- cma 2y ago
  Instructions for building a box anyone could pit together for $20 in common materials with a button that would end the world would be a fairly unambiguously evil artifact. H-bombs as a much more expensive version that is arguable thanks to the somewhat lasting peace they can be argued to have brought through MAD, but if it had turned out world enders were something anyone could easily throw together it would be a very different world, or non-world.

throw_pm23 2y ago

It may be because there are rarely such simplistic rule-based lessons. To your example, nationalism could be a great emancipatory force in one century and an instrument of great suffering in another. If there is some takeaway, then it must be more subtle than "nationalism=evil".

pavlov 2y ago
You’ll notice that I qualified it with “the kind of nationalism that…” I don’t have a problem with the kind of nationalism that gave European minority languages pride in their own culture and literature in the 19th century, for example. I do have a problem with the kind of nationalism exemplified by lots of 20th century European leaders from Kaiser Wilhelm II to Milosevic. The latter kind is sadly on the rise again. And the former isn’t endemic to nationalism. Everyone can have pride in their identity, it doesn’t need a state apparatus.
- DiscourseFan 2y ago
  >Everyone can have pride in their identity, it doesn’t need a state apparatus. Well, you'd want to think so. But I wonder if all identities politics doesn't, in the end, trend towards fascism.
  - funcDropShadow 2y ago
    You don't have to wonder. Just observe what is going on in so-called liberal democracies of the world while identity politics is implemented by governments: censorship, redefinition of words, inventing new moral issues to shutdown inconvenient facts and such.