3 ms·

Well browser standards were pretty much gimped by microsoft during the IE5/IE6 era, so from 1998 until around 2010 there was no progress on standards and Micros

Well browser standards were pretty much gimped by microsoft during the IE5/IE6 era, so from 1998 until around 2010 there was no progress on standards and Microsoft was actively trying to prevent web applications from becoming a thing in order to not damage Windows market share. From 2010 until about 2020 I would say the standard committee took hold and they have been quite busy with other things. Since JS is a language defined by committee it can take quite some time for people to agree on APIs which is a subjective topic. The last thing the standards body want is to introduce an API and then deprecate it in favor of another API slightly later.

boplicity 2y ago
> Microsoft was actively trying to prevent web applications from becoming a thing in order to not damage Windows market share. Boy, it's a different company doing this now, but this is definitely still something that is happening, especially in mobile.
- DanielHB 2y ago
  Not to the same level as back then, the closest thing would be Apple refusing to implement good PWA integration and Web Push Notifications (forcing people to use Apple Push Notifications which only works in Safari). PWAs are still (mostly) supported in Safari, they just don't integrate at the OS level in iOS. Apple is still actively developing Safari and JSC and implementing standards, Microsoft basically COMPLETELY FROZE browser improvements for 10+ years. Worse even, they pushed proprietary Microsoft-only solutions to try to lock-in people.
harrall 2y ago
Microsoft was MASSIVELY trying to make web applications a thing. They introduced HTML Applications[1] in 1999 (e.g. Electron). In 2001, they added the JavaScript features that let us have Gmail and Google Maps (XMLHttpRequest). They let you rebuild your Windows desktop or any folder as a HTML in Windows 2000/ME. They created a ton of APIs from web components[2] to CSS effects[3] in 1998. However, when Netscape died, Microsoft did a 180 and went from the leader in promoting the web to the absolute worst obstruction. It seemed like they completely de-funded their IE development team. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HTML_Application https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HTML_Application [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HTML_Components https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HTML_Components [3] https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/previous-versions/ms530752(v=vs.85) https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/previous-versions/ms530752... (previously was just filter:)
eviks 2y ago
Is Java not designed by committee?
WorldMaker 2y ago
> during the IE5/IE6 era During that era was a peak of browser innovation. IE5 and IE6 contributed a lot of things to web standards. They contributed a bunch of things that web standards eventually rejected too, but that was the risk of innovation at the time. It was the period between IE6's last feature update and IE7's first release where Microsoft declared the browser wars "finished" and disbanded the IE team entirely that was the Darkest Age. So about 2001-2006 were the darkest few years. It certainly had repercussions until around 2010, but the worst "sabotages" were done and gone by then. "Legacy" problems.
- phire 2y ago
  I would say the darkest era was after IE7 was released: 2006-2010. You could see all the new features, you could use them, you could design your site around them. But so many people refused to upgrade, so as a web developer you were forced to do stupid things to make IE6 work. And it's not like IE7 was that much better. You needed to put effort into making that work too. At least Chrome and Firefox would usually both do the same thing.
  - DanielHB 2y ago
    > And it's not like IE7 was that much better. The end of the dark ages was when IE9 was released in 2011 which massively improved the browser.

boplicity 2y ago

> Microsoft was actively trying to prevent web applications from becoming a thing in order to not damage Windows market share. Boy, it's a different company doing this now, but this is definitely still something that is happening, especially in mobile.

DanielHB 2y ago
Not to the same level as back then, the closest thing would be Apple refusing to implement good PWA integration and Web Push Notifications (forcing people to use Apple Push Notifications which only works in Safari). PWAs are still (mostly) supported in Safari, they just don't integrate at the OS level in iOS. Apple is still actively developing Safari and JSC and implementing standards, Microsoft basically COMPLETELY FROZE browser improvements for 10+ years. Worse even, they pushed proprietary Microsoft-only solutions to try to lock-in people.

harrall 2y ago

Microsoft was MASSIVELY trying to make web applications a thing. They introduced HTML Applications[1] in 1999 (e.g. Electron). In 2001, they added the JavaScript features that let us have Gmail and Google Maps (XMLHttpRequest). They let you rebuild your Windows desktop or any folder as a HTML in Windows 2000/ME. They created a ton of APIs from web components[2] to CSS effects[3] in 1998. However, when Netscape died, Microsoft did a 180 and went from the leader in promoting the web to the absolute worst obstruction. It seemed like they completely de-funded their IE development team. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HTML_Application https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HTML_Application [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HTML_Components https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HTML_Components [3] https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/previous-versions/ms530752(v=vs.85) https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/previous-versions/ms530752... (previously was just filter:)

eviks 2y ago

Is Java not designed by committee?

WorldMaker 2y ago

> during the IE5/IE6 era During that era was a peak of browser innovation. IE5 and IE6 contributed a lot of things to web standards. They contributed a bunch of things that web standards eventually rejected too, but that was the risk of innovation at the time. It was the period between IE6's last feature update and IE7's first release where Microsoft declared the browser wars "finished" and disbanded the IE team entirely that was the Darkest Age. So about 2001-2006 were the darkest few years. It certainly had repercussions until around 2010, but the worst "sabotages" were done and gone by then. "Legacy" problems.

phire 2y ago
I would say the darkest era was after IE7 was released: 2006-2010. You could see all the new features, you could use them, you could design your site around them. But so many people refused to upgrade, so as a web developer you were forced to do stupid things to make IE6 work. And it's not like IE7 was that much better. You needed to put effort into making that work too. At least Chrome and Firefox would usually both do the same thing.
- DanielHB 2y ago
  > And it's not like IE7 was that much better. The end of the dark ages was when IE9 was released in 2011 which massively improved the browser.