4 ms·
I'm glad I'm not the only one who was weirded out by the glossing over of the "it's better in the 20-40MHz range, I guess?" punch line. That's kind of exactly t
by bunnie 2y ago
I'm glad I'm not the only one who was weirded out by the glossing over of the "it's better in the 20-40MHz range, I guess?" punch line. That's kind of exactly the frequency band where you need the reinforcement.
The article does get it right that you need to reduce the parasitic elements to the chip, but you have to consider like, everything - not just the wires to the package, but also the lead frame, bond wires, the wiring in the chip. Usually the chip designers modeled that all out and they put decoupling capacitors on chip and did PCB model simulations that includes some specific assumption about the impedance curves of the off-chip caps, and they probably used 0.1uF in their simulations.
If anything, you need closely placed decaps to prop up higher frequencies, not lower frequencies. Remember if you have a SPI bus clocking at 25MHz, 25MHz is just the fundamental - you have the whole fourier series going up to 100's of MHz on the edge.
The answer I had always seen looking at the chip models is that there is an off-chip capacitance value below which it does not make sense to use because the bond wires effectively isolate the chip above certain frequencies (i.e., while smaller value capacitors have higher SRF it doesn't matter because the chip can't "see" the capacitor due to the bond wires screening it out).
If you knew where that roll-off was, and you knew the curve of your capacitors + board parasitics, you'd place a cap as close as you can to the chip in the frequency band right below the roll off of the bond wires to prop up that zone. Then, you'd place larger caps farther away because, as the article notes, the inductance goes up but also you're just looking to prop up the higher impedance-at-lower-frequencies curve of the tiny cap that's close to the chip.
So a lot of it depends on the exact chip you're working with and how well designed it is. A classic chip design team would have an expert who did all the parasitic modeling of the package, board, and then they'd do a noise analysis on the chip and recommend a minimum on-chip decap so the board designers don't have to worry too much, they can get away with "almost anything" in the 0.1uF range. Unfortunately chip design teams are getting leaner and leaner these days and I don't see the same level of care being put into chips. I think we more or less get away with it because there is so much margin in the chip timing; also modern chips are "mostly" (>50%) fill cells -- e.g. decoupling capacitors -- that are placed right up against the logic gates so you can get away with bloody murder on the package and power distribution networks (background: modern chips are wiring-limited, not transistor-limited, but for process stability reasons you still need to make transistors everywhere at a uniform density, so they instantiate dummy transistors that are wired as capacitors between power and ground).
Where it really starts to matter is if you had e.g. a PLL and you're trying to reduce noise that the loop filter can't get rid of and in those cases often times you need much smaller capacitors because they have much better performance at higher frequencies. Yes, they suck at low frequencies - but your noise problem isn't in the 1MHz band anyways; the loop filter can track that out. It's going to be in the 100MHz+ range.
And as someone noted elsewhere, in-rush current is a real problem, and too much capacitance can cause a problem for regulator stability; especially the extremely high performance ceramics. And, if you're doing an extremely power efficient design you may need to consider factors like leakage and losses due to CV-energy cycling if you shut down significant portions of the design when not in use.
(edits for clarity)
- fxtentacle 2y agoOh yeah, I completely forgot to mention proximity. 10x 100nF caps might be superior to 1x 1uF simply because the latter can only be close to 1 pin whereas the first can be close to 10 power supply pins. Looking at the left diagram under the "Decoupling capacitor placement" headline here: https://jmw.name/projects/exploring-pdns/ https://jmw.name/projects/exploring-pdns/ ... it is very obvious that the cap being 1cm away will already cause much worse degradation than what going from 100nF to 1uF could ever improve. Many modern chips have multiple power input pins. Using smaller caps close to all of them will do much better than fewer bigger better caps, but with more distance.
- exmadscientist 2y agoI like this article a lot, but it doesn't hammer home the fullest, easiest statement of this kind of lazy-best-effort decoupling: pick the smallest package you are willing to deal with, then buy the biggest value of capacitor you are willing to pay for in that package. Loop area really does rule all, and if you don't know that, you're going to have a hard time of it. The article also doesn't do a particularly good job of making the argument against relying on the "notch" (seen here at 25–40MHz), which is that the notch moves. It moves around with just about any change in... anything... so you can either pay the heavy price to genuinely control it (it can be actually worthwhile to drop a notch on things in certain analog applications; think knocking out a DAC clock frequency in a reconstruction filter) or you can ignore that the notch exists. Usually that's the easier option!
- rcxdude 2y ago>Oh yeah, I completely forgot to mention proximity. 10x 100nF caps might be superior to 1x 1uF simply because the latter can only be close to 1 pin whereas the first can be close to 10 power supply pins. That's the point of the article, though. 1uF caps are now available in package sizes smaller than 100nF caps were when the rule of thumb originated. You can get a 16V rates uF cap in 0201 nowadays, so proximity really isn't a problem. I second the general rule of thumb: stacking decoupling capacitors is extremely rarely needed nowadays. Pick your size, put the largest capacitor you can get in that size (or, if you're paranoid and think the manufacturers might be pushing things, go one size smaller) as close to the chip as you can, and maybe assess if you need some bulk capacitance as well, but more likely you are liable to wind up with too much capacitance.