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by insane_dreamer 2y ago

[flagged]

stall84 2y ago
I didn’t know. this line is really upsetting people tonight.
- ty6853 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - femto 2y ago
    The Westminster tradition is for the public service to give "frank and fearless advice" [1] in the interests of the nation. It's still democratic, as a minister can choose to ignore this advice, at their own peril, and issue orders. As hinted at by their name, a public servant's first loyalty should to the public/nation rather than their Minister/Master. Maybe the US has a different system? Of course the above is theoretical. In practise governments demand loyalty to themselves and there is little peril to Ministers as there now seems to be little repercussion for denying responsibility. [1] https://vpsc.vic.gov.au/about-vpsc/updates-from-the-commissioner/informing-and-advising-ministers/ https://vpsc.vic.gov.au/about-vpsc/updates-from-the-commissi...
    - Ntrails 2y ago
      > It's still democratic, as a minister can choose to ignore this advice, at their own peril, and issue orders Whilst this is true, the civil service has been alleged to leak/ brief against such orders, not to mention be obstructive about their implementation. The hard part for me at least is telling whether this is because eg "ordering us to make buildings out of compacted sand is hard" or "we are going to drag our feet as much as we can because this is dumb"
    - throw0101d 2y ago
      > As hinted at by their name, a public servant's first loyalty should to the public/nation rather than their Minister/Master. Maybe the US has a different system? Both systems rely on the people in charge being told okay with being told "no, this is a bad idea". The Ministers/Secretaries/Executive may think their plan(s) are a good idea and the civil service are being obstructionist. (Of course the civil service could be wrong as well.)
      - ty6853 2y ago
        The US system relies on them informing the public, or in case of say the ATF they make quasi law through opinions and then arrest the public and put them in tiny cages. The public can decide to elect someone to shit can them. We have voted to liberate many of them from service. Obviously some wont like that, but they are servants to the people not peers.
        freen 2y ago
        Yeah, bureaucrat equals evil is an easy position to take: No one likes following the rules until they are responsible for cleaning up after the people who didn’t follow the rules.
        ty6853 2y ago
        The American people are tired of cleaning up the messes the bureaucracy has made. They've broken the rules, and it is time for the mess to be cleaned up and ejected from their jobs. Many who have more HN-like peers and communities may not realize this is the opinion of the people, but the awakening is coming when the paychecks stop.
        deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
        throw0101c 2y ago
        > The American people are tired of cleaning up the messes the bureaucracy has made. Wait until you see the messes that are created when there are no rules because there is no bureaucracy.
        Toutouxc 2y ago
        Funny, you could just replace “American” with “German” and the comment would still work, even like 90 years or so ago!
        2y ago
  - craftsman 2y ago
    I think you mean civil servants. There should be nothing we all want more than to have a professional--and more importantly--apolitical civil service whose members are empowered to do their jobs.
- addicted 2y ago
  I’m curious, how many people in your business were elected to their jobs? Do you think people should be electing the ATC agents? Also, what’s your opinion about the entire cabinet, Elon Musk, and the likes, all of whom are also unelected?
  - natch 2y ago
    Kamala was also unelected for her position as the democratic candidate for the 2024 election. My opinion is that was a really dumb idea that snatched defeat from the jaws of victory for the democrats. And the cray crays (“Elon is a Nazi”) have the nerve to accuse the other side of being the threat to democracy. Compared to the non-election anointing of Kamala, other unelected people are just noise. You know I’m right. All of this is just fallout from the unelected candidate being pushed on unwanting voters.
sfn42 2y ago
[flagged]
- ovi256 2y ago
  A coup by whom against whom ?
  - goosedragons 2y ago
    [flagged]
  - sfn42 2y ago
    I was referring to the 6th of January 2021 event where a large gathering of Trump followers stormed the capitol. From my understanding that would be by Trump and his followers, against the rest of the United States population/democracy/whatever you prefer.
    - sfn42 2y ago
      I'm noticing quite a few down votes on this. You should know I based this on Wikipedia, it's pretty much just facts. So if you find yourself reading this and not enjoying the facts, maybe you should reconsider your support for that orange clown. Blows my mind that anyone would vote for him, any time I see a clip of him I can physically feel my IQ dropping. I can't imagine a more obvious moron, it's so clear from listening to him talk that he has no idea what he's talking about half the time and the other half he's lying. It baffles me that anyone would vote for him.
  - insane_dreamer 2y ago
    Well, a violent mob attacked the capitol in an attempt to overturn the results of a democratic election, egged on by the acting president who lost the election. It wasn't a coup, but in other countries we would call that an attempted coup. That same politician instead of being barred from running for office again for inciting an attempted coup, was allowed to (by the justices who he had appointed to office, conveniently), and in is first act as president pardoned all those who participated in the attempted coup, sending a message that violent attempts to thwart the democratic process are ok so long as it's support of him. So while not quite Liberia or Haiti level coup, certainly the most serious anti-democracy attempt in US history (makes Watergate look cute by comparison) and yet half the country just shrugged it off, opening the door to a fascist (self-serving politicians married with self-serving broligarchs) government.
throw0101c 2y ago
> The reformed federal workforce will be built around four pillars: […] > 4. Enhanced standards of conduct: The federal workforce should be comprised of employees who are reliable, loyal, trustworthy, and who strive for excellence in their daily work. Employees will be subject to enhanced standards of suitability and conduct as we move forward. Employees who engage in unlawful behavior or other misconduct will be prioritized for appropriate investigation and discipline, including termination. […] > Upon review of the below deferred resignation letter, if you wish to resign: 1) Select “Reply” to this email. You must reply from your government account. A reply from an account other than your .gov or .mil account will not be accepted. 2) Type the word “Resign” into the body of this reply email. Hit “Send”. * https://www.opm.gov/fork https://www.opm.gov/fork
- chgs 2y ago
  > Employees who engage in unlawful behavior Convicted felon, that sort of thing?
  - insane_dreamer 2y ago
    Only if you’re president

[flagged]

stall84 2y ago

I didn’t know. this line is really upsetting people tonight.

ty6853 2y ago
[flagged]
- femto 2y ago
  The Westminster tradition is for the public service to give "frank and fearless advice" [1] in the interests of the nation. It's still democratic, as a minister can choose to ignore this advice, at their own peril, and issue orders. As hinted at by their name, a public servant's first loyalty should to the public/nation rather than their Minister/Master. Maybe the US has a different system? Of course the above is theoretical. In practise governments demand loyalty to themselves and there is little peril to Ministers as there now seems to be little repercussion for denying responsibility. [1] https://vpsc.vic.gov.au/about-vpsc/updates-from-the-commissioner/informing-and-advising-ministers/ https://vpsc.vic.gov.au/about-vpsc/updates-from-the-commissi...
  - Ntrails 2y ago
    > It's still democratic, as a minister can choose to ignore this advice, at their own peril, and issue orders Whilst this is true, the civil service has been alleged to leak/ brief against such orders, not to mention be obstructive about their implementation. The hard part for me at least is telling whether this is because eg "ordering us to make buildings out of compacted sand is hard" or "we are going to drag our feet as much as we can because this is dumb"
  - throw0101d 2y ago
    > As hinted at by their name, a public servant's first loyalty should to the public/nation rather than their Minister/Master. Maybe the US has a different system? Both systems rely on the people in charge being told okay with being told "no, this is a bad idea". The Ministers/Secretaries/Executive may think their plan(s) are a good idea and the civil service are being obstructionist. (Of course the civil service could be wrong as well.)
    - ty6853 2y ago
      The US system relies on them informing the public, or in case of say the ATF they make quasi law through opinions and then arrest the public and put them in tiny cages. The public can decide to elect someone to shit can them. We have voted to liberate many of them from service. Obviously some wont like that, but they are servants to the people not peers.
      - freen 2y ago
        Yeah, bureaucrat equals evil is an easy position to take: No one likes following the rules until they are responsible for cleaning up after the people who didn’t follow the rules.
        ty6853 2y ago
        The American people are tired of cleaning up the messes the bureaucracy has made. They've broken the rules, and it is time for the mess to be cleaned up and ejected from their jobs. Many who have more HN-like peers and communities may not realize this is the opinion of the people, but the awakening is coming when the paychecks stop.
        deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
        throw0101c 2y ago
        > The American people are tired of cleaning up the messes the bureaucracy has made. Wait until you see the messes that are created when there are no rules because there is no bureaucracy.
        Toutouxc 2y ago
        Funny, you could just replace “American” with “German” and the comment would still work, even like 90 years or so ago!
        2y ago
- craftsman 2y ago
  I think you mean civil servants. There should be nothing we all want more than to have a professional--and more importantly--apolitical civil service whose members are empowered to do their jobs.
addicted 2y ago
I’m curious, how many people in your business were elected to their jobs? Do you think people should be electing the ATC agents? Also, what’s your opinion about the entire cabinet, Elon Musk, and the likes, all of whom are also unelected?
- natch 2y ago
  Kamala was also unelected for her position as the democratic candidate for the 2024 election. My opinion is that was a really dumb idea that snatched defeat from the jaws of victory for the democrats. And the cray crays (“Elon is a Nazi”) have the nerve to accuse the other side of being the threat to democracy. Compared to the non-election anointing of Kamala, other unelected people are just noise. You know I’m right. All of this is just fallout from the unelected candidate being pushed on unwanting voters.

sfn42 2y ago

[flagged]

ovi256 2y ago
A coup by whom against whom ?
- goosedragons 2y ago
  [flagged]
- sfn42 2y ago
  I was referring to the 6th of January 2021 event where a large gathering of Trump followers stormed the capitol. From my understanding that would be by Trump and his followers, against the rest of the United States population/democracy/whatever you prefer.
  - sfn42 2y ago
    I'm noticing quite a few down votes on this. You should know I based this on Wikipedia, it's pretty much just facts. So if you find yourself reading this and not enjoying the facts, maybe you should reconsider your support for that orange clown. Blows my mind that anyone would vote for him, any time I see a clip of him I can physically feel my IQ dropping. I can't imagine a more obvious moron, it's so clear from listening to him talk that he has no idea what he's talking about half the time and the other half he's lying. It baffles me that anyone would vote for him.
- insane_dreamer 2y ago
  Well, a violent mob attacked the capitol in an attempt to overturn the results of a democratic election, egged on by the acting president who lost the election. It wasn't a coup, but in other countries we would call that an attempted coup. That same politician instead of being barred from running for office again for inciting an attempted coup, was allowed to (by the justices who he had appointed to office, conveniently), and in is first act as president pardoned all those who participated in the attempted coup, sending a message that violent attempts to thwart the democratic process are ok so long as it's support of him. So while not quite Liberia or Haiti level coup, certainly the most serious anti-democracy attempt in US history (makes Watergate look cute by comparison) and yet half the country just shrugged it off, opening the door to a fascist (self-serving politicians married with self-serving broligarchs) government.

throw0101c 2y ago

> The reformed federal workforce will be built around four pillars: […] > 4. Enhanced standards of conduct: The federal workforce should be comprised of employees who are reliable, loyal, trustworthy, and who strive for excellence in their daily work. Employees will be subject to enhanced standards of suitability and conduct as we move forward. Employees who engage in unlawful behavior or other misconduct will be prioritized for appropriate investigation and discipline, including termination. […] > Upon review of the below deferred resignation letter, if you wish to resign: 1) Select “Reply” to this email. You must reply from your government account. A reply from an account other than your .gov or .mil account will not be accepted. 2) Type the word “Resign” into the body of this reply email. Hit “Send”. * https://www.opm.gov/fork https://www.opm.gov/fork

chgs 2y ago
> Employees who engage in unlawful behavior Convicted felon, that sort of thing?
- insane_dreamer 2y ago
  Only if you’re president