4 ms·

One aspect I’m curious about, especially given the younger cohort, is the causal directionality here - especially when I was younger, I knew a lot of people who

One aspect I’m curious about, especially given the younger cohort, is the causal directionality here - especially when I was younger, I knew a lot of people who were self-medicating with cannabis for things like anxiety and ADHD, which also have effects on working memory and executive function. I’ve known enough heavy users long enough that I do believe there’s long term cognitive effects (whether directly or indirectly), but the specific effects and cohorts they were evaluating here gave me some pause.

guywithahat 2y ago
> self-medicating I know this doesn’t add to the conversation but I hate that term, they should just say they’re addicted to weed. 95% of the time the anxiety is either normal or a result of chronic weed use (ie withdrawal)
- roughly 2y ago
  A great deal of both the psychological and the drug policy communities disagree with you on this point.
  - HideousKojima 2y ago
    [flagged]
    - krispyfi 2y ago
      [flagged]
    - t-3 2y ago
      Point out the problems caused by marijuana during the thousands of years of unregulated use. The regulatory environment is the main driver for the problems caused by most drugs in the modern world. If it weren't illegal to use/possess/sell, people would largely not be stealing or killing or doing other antisocial things in order to do so. I'm not really a fan of decriminalization as a panacea to societal problems around drugs, but criminalization was the cause of most of those problems.
- agieocean 2y ago
  95% huh? Lets see some sources
- genocidicbunny 2y ago
  You're right, it doesn't add to the conversation, especially because you're citing at best some anecdotes without any sources. Plenty of people self-medicate with cannabis. They take regular, measured doses of cannabis products, making sure to pick specific strains or brands that they know to have the needed effects.
- throw__away7391 2y ago
  “Self medicating” is to “doing drugs” as “expat” is to “immigrant”.
- ultimafan 2y ago
  I agree with this in general though of course there are exceptions though from anecdotal experience they're outliers. The amount of people I went through my teenaged and then university years with who adopted the stance of "weed isn't a "real" drug and smoking every day for years on end doesn't make me an addict" when it was clearly affecting their life negatively in a visible way was always baffling. The majority of them didn't start smoking weed to "self medicate", they started recreationally and just got to a point where they didn't WANT to function without it but would begin to associate the "boring" feeling of sobriety as something that needs to be treated.
  - guywithahat 2y ago
    I had a college friend who claimed it wasn't addictive, and then became addicted. Towards the end of freshman year he quit school for a couple weeks, just to determine he couldn't stop smoking and went right back. Last I spoke to him he was still trying to quit, and he had a new method of locking the weed in a box to limit his use. His withdrawals included him becoming extremely anxious, which is presumably why so many people think the weed helps with their anxiety. In 30 years we're going to look at weed like a slightly different version of cigarettes and wonder why anyone legalized it knowing what the consequences would be.
    - t-3 2y ago
      Weed isn't physically addictive. Forming habits is a very different thing though - anything can become addictive if you train yourself to need it. I've known heavy smokers who couldn't eat or function normally without weed, but people with less structured and intense habituation who use similar amounts over similar lengths of time without any issues.
- to11mtm 2y ago
  My understanding is that THC is primarily indirectly psychologically addictive. I should also add the irony that at least according to some, weed was pushed for bannage at least in part because it was something migrant farmers would use to help get through the simple monotonous work in their day [0]. To that extent it's not that different from the folks I worked with in many industries that had notable yet not directly debilitating habits in the gacha/lootbox, nicotine in one form or another, gambling, adult entertainers, expensive weekend trips, or whatever else happened to hit their dopamine receptors the right way due to past stimuli. The bigger question is this; I've had colleagues that within a week of stopping work at a toxic place, stop drunk-dialing me at 2AM. Why aren't we asking that? What are we not asking about cross-correlation? How many people go to darker paths to get their kicks? [1] [0] - And maybe that's apocrypha, OTOH every productive JVM dev I've met seems ok with the devil's lettuce.... [1] - Wait NVM they become management
- _bin_ 2y ago
  no idea how this got so heavily downvoted. sorry, but most of these people don't actually have a reason for using it. it hasn't been strongly evaluated for psychological use; there are a few physical conditions for which it can make a difference but essentially nobody is using it for that relative to the population size of abusers. criticize it on twitter as harmful and addictive and a dozen people will pop up, inveigh at you with a score of mean replies, then block you. of course they're not addicted though. weed's not medicine, dude, it's, like, harmless, man. i'll admit i'm personally biased here in that i know people who have had both temporary and permanent psychological issues from overconsumption and i just generally think depressants/downers are bad things in most cases.
- _yb2s 2y ago
  I would turn that around and say addiction should be more often seen in the context of self medicating: what issue is the person having that the drug is fulfilling some important need for them, even if it is doing so in an unhealthy way? There usually is an underlying psychological issue, and this framing gives a path towards understanding and addressing it.
mrkstu 2y ago
most classical ADHD people I’ve met were slightly/very above average IQ types regardless of their symptoms, so my instinct would be told be that the effect may be even more pronounced- they’d probably have to do some controlling via something like looking at PSATs to get a before/after.
- viraptor 2y ago
  There are studies on that topic and no, IQ turns out just slightly lower than typical for ADHD. Sorry, no link at hand, but maybe someone else has it. Edit: here it is - https://youtu.be/4_BIaLhdkrw https://youtu.be/4_BIaLhdkrw which discusses https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11469-019-00125-x https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11469-019-00125-x
  - ianbutler 2y ago
    https://www.adhdevidence.org/blog/smart-people-can-have-adhd-too https://www.adhdevidence.org/blog/smart-people-can-have-adhd... I'll edit this to say ADHD exhibits across the IQ spectrum. Smart people cope better and it makes it difficult for diagnosis.
Perenti 2y ago
I've consumed far more than my fair share of cannabis, starting at age 19. I'm also almost certainly ADHD (according to friend who's a psychiatrist, but says I'm untestable), and have a meaninglessly high IQ. I've noticed that amongst very slow people, more _seem_ to have started smoking dope at a very young age (9 to 12). The idea that pot could be very bad for adolescents in particular is not a new one. I certainly feel slowed down by it, although as the study says, it's working memory that's affected. I sometimes wonder what life would have been like if I'd met weed at say 30yo. Would the final stages of "maturing" have played out very differently?
- _yb2s 2y ago
  I recommend getting evaluated for ADHD. Both drugs and non-drug management strategies can radically improve your quality of life. I don’t see how you can be “untestable.” There is no test- they interview you and other people in your life to see if you have the symptoms or not.
  - fsckboy 2y ago
    and the test is, try ritalin, if it helps you concentrate, it works. If not, no.
    - cambaceres 2y ago
      All people increase their ability to concentrate when on Ritalin.
    - dns_snek 2y ago
      I'd think hard about the possible consequences of doing this. It could be challenging to explain if you're ever asked about it when undergoing official diagnosis, you might be forced to lie or risk being labeled a drug seeker. And I don't think looking out for whether it "helps you concentrate" is a valuable metric. Healthy people also abuse stimulants because it helps them concentrate. Perhaps a more valuable effect to pay attention to is whether it calms you down? This is a counter-intuitive effect common in people with ADHD.
interludead 2y ago
I had a friend who was self-medicating her anxiety and bipolar disorder (as I understand it, she only found out about the bipolar disorder some time after she quit smoking). She was pursuing a bachelor's degree at the time and was highly promising in her field, according to her supervisors. But after six months of use, all her academic achievements turned into failures. Plus, during depressive phases, cannabis sometimes made her feel even worse. In the end, after a year of smoking weed, she quit because she realized it was seriously affecting her brain and abilities. And that she could end up completely screwing up her life.
- aurareturn 2y ago
  Seems like a common story and I’m glad she came into that realization without wasting a decade or more.
  - interludead 2y ago
    I completely agree with you. I'm very happy for her that everything is going well for her now.
cambaceres 2y ago
"Self-medicating with cannabis" is such a stupid idea since cannabis increase ADHD-symptoms.
- zen928 2y ago
  Stimulants also 'increase ADHD-symptoms' for individuals that don't have ADHD, so I don't think the sentiment was attempting to address side effects of irrelevant cohorts.
  - cambaceres 2y ago
    It's a myth that stimulants only work on people with ADHD. ADHD is not a real condition anyway, it's a collection of symptoms that can have many different causes.

guywithahat 2y ago

> self-medicating I know this doesn’t add to the conversation but I hate that term, they should just say they’re addicted to weed. 95% of the time the anxiety is either normal or a result of chronic weed use (ie withdrawal)

roughly 2y ago
A great deal of both the psychological and the drug policy communities disagree with you on this point.
- HideousKojima 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - krispyfi 2y ago
    [flagged]
  - t-3 2y ago
    Point out the problems caused by marijuana during the thousands of years of unregulated use. The regulatory environment is the main driver for the problems caused by most drugs in the modern world. If it weren't illegal to use/possess/sell, people would largely not be stealing or killing or doing other antisocial things in order to do so. I'm not really a fan of decriminalization as a panacea to societal problems around drugs, but criminalization was the cause of most of those problems.
agieocean 2y ago
95% huh? Lets see some sources
genocidicbunny 2y ago
You're right, it doesn't add to the conversation, especially because you're citing at best some anecdotes without any sources. Plenty of people self-medicate with cannabis. They take regular, measured doses of cannabis products, making sure to pick specific strains or brands that they know to have the needed effects.
throw__away7391 2y ago
“Self medicating” is to “doing drugs” as “expat” is to “immigrant”.
ultimafan 2y ago
I agree with this in general though of course there are exceptions though from anecdotal experience they're outliers. The amount of people I went through my teenaged and then university years with who adopted the stance of "weed isn't a "real" drug and smoking every day for years on end doesn't make me an addict" when it was clearly affecting their life negatively in a visible way was always baffling. The majority of them didn't start smoking weed to "self medicate", they started recreationally and just got to a point where they didn't WANT to function without it but would begin to associate the "boring" feeling of sobriety as something that needs to be treated.
- guywithahat 2y ago
  I had a college friend who claimed it wasn't addictive, and then became addicted. Towards the end of freshman year he quit school for a couple weeks, just to determine he couldn't stop smoking and went right back. Last I spoke to him he was still trying to quit, and he had a new method of locking the weed in a box to limit his use. His withdrawals included him becoming extremely anxious, which is presumably why so many people think the weed helps with their anxiety. In 30 years we're going to look at weed like a slightly different version of cigarettes and wonder why anyone legalized it knowing what the consequences would be.
  - t-3 2y ago
    Weed isn't physically addictive. Forming habits is a very different thing though - anything can become addictive if you train yourself to need it. I've known heavy smokers who couldn't eat or function normally without weed, but people with less structured and intense habituation who use similar amounts over similar lengths of time without any issues.
to11mtm 2y ago
My understanding is that THC is primarily indirectly psychologically addictive. I should also add the irony that at least according to some, weed was pushed for bannage at least in part because it was something migrant farmers would use to help get through the simple monotonous work in their day [0]. To that extent it's not that different from the folks I worked with in many industries that had notable yet not directly debilitating habits in the gacha/lootbox, nicotine in one form or another, gambling, adult entertainers, expensive weekend trips, or whatever else happened to hit their dopamine receptors the right way due to past stimuli. The bigger question is this; I've had colleagues that within a week of stopping work at a toxic place, stop drunk-dialing me at 2AM. Why aren't we asking that? What are we not asking about cross-correlation? How many people go to darker paths to get their kicks? [1] [0] - And maybe that's apocrypha, OTOH every productive JVM dev I've met seems ok with the devil's lettuce.... [1] - Wait NVM they become management
_bin_ 2y ago
no idea how this got so heavily downvoted. sorry, but most of these people don't actually have a reason for using it. it hasn't been strongly evaluated for psychological use; there are a few physical conditions for which it can make a difference but essentially nobody is using it for that relative to the population size of abusers. criticize it on twitter as harmful and addictive and a dozen people will pop up, inveigh at you with a score of mean replies, then block you. of course they're not addicted though. weed's not medicine, dude, it's, like, harmless, man. i'll admit i'm personally biased here in that i know people who have had both temporary and permanent psychological issues from overconsumption and i just generally think depressants/downers are bad things in most cases.
_yb2s 2y ago
I would turn that around and say addiction should be more often seen in the context of self medicating: what issue is the person having that the drug is fulfilling some important need for them, even if it is doing so in an unhealthy way? There usually is an underlying psychological issue, and this framing gives a path towards understanding and addressing it.

mrkstu 2y ago

most classical ADHD people I’ve met were slightly/very above average IQ types regardless of their symptoms, so my instinct would be told be that the effect may be even more pronounced- they’d probably have to do some controlling via something like looking at PSATs to get a before/after.

viraptor 2y ago
There are studies on that topic and no, IQ turns out just slightly lower than typical for ADHD. Sorry, no link at hand, but maybe someone else has it. Edit: here it is - https://youtu.be/4_BIaLhdkrw https://youtu.be/4_BIaLhdkrw which discusses https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11469-019-00125-x https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11469-019-00125-x
- ianbutler 2y ago
  https://www.adhdevidence.org/blog/smart-people-can-have-adhd-too https://www.adhdevidence.org/blog/smart-people-can-have-adhd... I'll edit this to say ADHD exhibits across the IQ spectrum. Smart people cope better and it makes it difficult for diagnosis.

Perenti 2y ago

I've consumed far more than my fair share of cannabis, starting at age 19. I'm also almost certainly ADHD (according to friend who's a psychiatrist, but says I'm untestable), and have a meaninglessly high IQ. I've noticed that amongst very slow people, more _seem_ to have started smoking dope at a very young age (9 to 12). The idea that pot could be very bad for adolescents in particular is not a new one. I certainly feel slowed down by it, although as the study says, it's working memory that's affected. I sometimes wonder what life would have been like if I'd met weed at say 30yo. Would the final stages of "maturing" have played out very differently?

_yb2s 2y ago
I recommend getting evaluated for ADHD. Both drugs and non-drug management strategies can radically improve your quality of life. I don’t see how you can be “untestable.” There is no test- they interview you and other people in your life to see if you have the symptoms or not.
- fsckboy 2y ago
  and the test is, try ritalin, if it helps you concentrate, it works. If not, no.
  - cambaceres 2y ago
    All people increase their ability to concentrate when on Ritalin.
  - dns_snek 2y ago
    I'd think hard about the possible consequences of doing this. It could be challenging to explain if you're ever asked about it when undergoing official diagnosis, you might be forced to lie or risk being labeled a drug seeker. And I don't think looking out for whether it "helps you concentrate" is a valuable metric. Healthy people also abuse stimulants because it helps them concentrate. Perhaps a more valuable effect to pay attention to is whether it calms you down? This is a counter-intuitive effect common in people with ADHD.

interludead 2y ago

I had a friend who was self-medicating her anxiety and bipolar disorder (as I understand it, she only found out about the bipolar disorder some time after she quit smoking). She was pursuing a bachelor's degree at the time and was highly promising in her field, according to her supervisors. But after six months of use, all her academic achievements turned into failures. Plus, during depressive phases, cannabis sometimes made her feel even worse. In the end, after a year of smoking weed, she quit because she realized it was seriously affecting her brain and abilities. And that she could end up completely screwing up her life.

aurareturn 2y ago
Seems like a common story and I’m glad she came into that realization without wasting a decade or more.
- interludead 2y ago
  I completely agree with you. I'm very happy for her that everything is going well for her now.

cambaceres 2y ago

"Self-medicating with cannabis" is such a stupid idea since cannabis increase ADHD-symptoms.

zen928 2y ago
Stimulants also 'increase ADHD-symptoms' for individuals that don't have ADHD, so I don't think the sentiment was attempting to address side effects of irrelevant cohorts.
- cambaceres 2y ago
  It's a myth that stimulants only work on people with ADHD. ADHD is not a real condition anyway, it's a collection of symptoms that can have many different causes.