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No he is right, hardware manufacturers treat software as a line item and just part of the BOM. Typically just contracted out (although some are trying to change

No he is right, hardware manufacturers treat software as a line item and just part of the BOM. Typically just contracted out (although some are trying to change that) Thats why its typically mediocre from companies outside of SV. You need a software first agile mentality from the leadership of the company on downwards and these legacy companies just dont have it.

thephyber 2y ago
Agile workflow for making cars? No. Agile workflow for frequently updating non-critical software in devices that happen to be cars? Sure.
dogtierstatus 2y ago
> software first agile mentality I can release a website with a list of known bugs. Do any govt allow release of cars with known bugs?
- jstanley 2y ago
  There's a wide spectrum of possible bugs. I would hazard that every car ever sold was sold with known bugs. As long as you're reasonably confident that the bugs don't pose a safety issue I don't see the problem.
AlotOfReading 2y ago
VW realized that software was important years ago and founded a dedicated software-only company called Cariad to specialize in it. They went ham recruiting traditional software folks for high salaries (in European terms). I know a few people who moved Bay area -> Europe to work for them and they have a couple west coast offices where you'd expect for the people who don't want to move. It's been an absolute disaster, with billions of dollars spent to produce delayed, buggy software.
- triceratops 2y ago
  Damn that last sentence was a heck of a plot twist.
  - brookst 2y ago
    As someone who worked in a software startup founded by a hardware company, it was very predictable.
- rammer 2y ago
  Oh no they did write that one piece of software, which was successful until it wasn't. https://venturebeat.com/offbeat/how-volkswagen-used-software-to-cheat-on-its-emissions-tests/ https://venturebeat.com/offbeat/how-volkswagen-used-software...
brookst 2y ago
The problem with hardware companies is they’re bad at software because the disciplines are so different that what works for one doesn’t work for the other. The problem with software companies is they’re bad at hardware for the same reason. User experience companies can be good at both. Maybe not as good at hardware as a hardware company, maybe not as good at software as software companies. Apple’s the obvious example, but Google, Garmin, heck even Starbucks are also good examples. Start with the user experience, build hardware of software or whatever else is needed. Specializing in a tool has value, but limits you to that tool.
- throw_pm23 2y ago
  OK, I'll bite. How is selling shitty coffee in large quantities a good example of either software or hardware excellence?
  - brookst 2y ago
    It’s neither. But they’re successful because of the user experience — consistency, the preloaded cards, the mobile ordering with notifications when your order is ready. They build whatever hardware (in store) or software (mobile / back end) is necessary to give the user experience they want. But you’re absolutely right — we can lump their mediocre coffee into hardware, or call it “goods” as a third category that you also don’t have to be the best at if you’re a UX company.

thephyber 2y ago

Agile workflow for making cars? No. Agile workflow for frequently updating non-critical software in devices that happen to be cars? Sure.

dogtierstatus 2y ago

> software first agile mentality I can release a website with a list of known bugs. Do any govt allow release of cars with known bugs?

jstanley 2y ago
There's a wide spectrum of possible bugs. I would hazard that every car ever sold was sold with known bugs. As long as you're reasonably confident that the bugs don't pose a safety issue I don't see the problem.

AlotOfReading 2y ago

VW realized that software was important years ago and founded a dedicated software-only company called Cariad to specialize in it. They went ham recruiting traditional software folks for high salaries (in European terms). I know a few people who moved Bay area -> Europe to work for them and they have a couple west coast offices where you'd expect for the people who don't want to move. It's been an absolute disaster, with billions of dollars spent to produce delayed, buggy software.

triceratops 2y ago
Damn that last sentence was a heck of a plot twist.
- brookst 2y ago
  As someone who worked in a software startup founded by a hardware company, it was very predictable.
rammer 2y ago
Oh no they did write that one piece of software, which was successful until it wasn't. https://venturebeat.com/offbeat/how-volkswagen-used-software-to-cheat-on-its-emissions-tests/ https://venturebeat.com/offbeat/how-volkswagen-used-software...

brookst 2y ago

The problem with hardware companies is they’re bad at software because the disciplines are so different that what works for one doesn’t work for the other. The problem with software companies is they’re bad at hardware for the same reason. User experience companies can be good at both. Maybe not as good at hardware as a hardware company, maybe not as good at software as software companies. Apple’s the obvious example, but Google, Garmin, heck even Starbucks are also good examples. Start with the user experience, build hardware of software or whatever else is needed. Specializing in a tool has value, but limits you to that tool.

throw_pm23 2y ago
OK, I'll bite. How is selling shitty coffee in large quantities a good example of either software or hardware excellence?
- brookst 2y ago
  It’s neither. But they’re successful because of the user experience — consistency, the preloaded cards, the mobile ordering with notifications when your order is ready. They build whatever hardware (in store) or software (mobile / back end) is necessary to give the user experience they want. But you’re absolutely right — we can lump their mediocre coffee into hardware, or call it “goods” as a third category that you also don’t have to be the best at if you’re a UX company.