5 ms·

Dumb question, but it would then seem that you have to know English to program??

creakingstairs 2y ago
It’s harder to learn for sure. Majority of the resources are in English and it’s harder to internalise the keywords. But it’s definitely possible to program without knowing English.
- sghiassy 2y ago
  But like, you can’t program Java without English right? A for-loop has to be written in English?? I’m so confused haha
  - FeteCommuniste 2y ago
    Yes, for Java in particular you need to know the various English keywords. At least I don’t think anyone has written a non-English Java variant that compiles to the JVM just as Java would.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - bentcorner 2y ago
    I imagine you could have a non-English toolchain, it's just uncommon. You may have to write a bunch of it yourself. Come to think of it, I wonder if there are language concepts that don't map to English that artificially restrict what we can program? For example would programming U->D, R->L in Chinese (vs L->R, U->D in English) result in easier to read programs somehow? Would being able to program using iconography (like a bunch of FE languages) result in more "screens" of text to aid understanding?
  - 0x457 2y ago
    Yes, but you don't need to know what "for" and "while" mean in your language, you just need to know their behavior. The same way Arnold Schwarzenegger was acting without knowing much English - everything was phonetically spelled for him in early roles.
    - throw_pm23 2y ago
      Or when Kennedy said in Berlin "ich bin ein Berliner" reading from a cue card that said "bear-leaner" :)
  - yk 2y ago
    You don't need to know that the keywords are actually english words. So to start the first program on a floppy on a C64 you would type load "*",8,1 and back then I didn't understand what load means any more than I understood what ,8,1 means, I just knew that if I press this sequence of letters it will start summer olympics.
  - dragonwriter 2y ago
    > But like, you can’t program Java without English right? Sure you can, if you know Java, which is its own language distinct from any natural language. Conversely, you can't program in Java if you know English, but not Java. > A for-loop has to be written in English?? No, it has to be written in Java. It's true that Java keywords are mostly themselves borrowed from English (often by way of C++ or other computer languages rather than directly) with a use in Java that has some connection to the meaning in English, so its probably easier to learn Java if you already know English (even before considering that there is probably more and better documentation in English than other languages), but that's not the same as English being a requirement for programming Java.
  - mikedelfino 2y ago
    A for loop and other syntax keywords are barely the only English people have to understand in programming. One could say that these could just as well be arbitrary symbols, and programmers would just memorize them. But think of all the concepts named in English such as exception, factory, facade, adapter, interface, iterator, needle, haystack, constructor, queue... you name it. Not to mention documentation. So yeah, some English is mandatory, even if we're not able to communicate properly. In some projects though it's not uncommon to use local language for the domain while still keeping technical concepts in English, like getAnniversaire() or PersonneTable.
  - wongarsu 2y ago
    I learned Pascal before I learned many English words like "if". You don't need to know what "if" or "for" mean to remember those keywords or to know what they do.
  - numpad0 2y ago
    It's like names of Pokemons. Every kids know that Bulbasaur is grass-poison typed and evolves into Ivysaur at Level 16. You have to memorize them all to be a good player and that's a whole load of nonsense! But that's not relatively huge undertaking, and nothing remotely like the full language.
  - tharkun__ 2y ago
    If you know another language than English, try Microsoft Excel in that other language. And even if not, just for fun install a non-English version of Excel. They translated the keywords. Even if you've programmed in proper programming languages for years without knowing English, all the regular keywords to get stuff done you will know in English. And you won't be able to do a single thing in Excel coz none of the keywords work. One good thing I guess: You can honestly say when they ask you "hey, you know how to program computers, right? Can you help me with this problem in Excel" and you can honestly say: Nope, can't, no idea how that works. See it doesn't even have a simple IF. Example: https://easy-excel.com/excel-in-other-languages/excel-formulas-in-french/ https://easy-excel.com/excel-in-other-languages/excel-formul...
presentation 2y ago
Probably at least some, because most tools’ documentation are not going to be in your language – at least that’s how it is here in Japan. That said plenty of Japanese engineers who have very low English skill.
evantbyrne 2y ago
Not literally required, because languages typically support UTF-8 source files, but it would be difficult to use most popular software libraries without being able to at least read English.
- sghiassy 2y ago
  Now I want to program in Mandarin and be l33t
  - fragmede 2y ago
    https://mariusbancila.ro/blog/2019/05/16/cpp-is-fun/ https://mariusbancila.ro/blog/2019/05/16/cpp-is-fun/
- maximilianthe1 2y ago
  Actually, most "most popular software libraries" have either translated docs, or guides in a non-English language. Furthermore, modern browsers can translate text on the fly. Some (like Yandex.Browser [1] not_an_ad) can even translate videos on the fly. [1] https://yandex.ru/project/browser/streams/technology https://yandex.ru/project/browser/streams/technology (RU only)
  - autumnstwilight 2y ago
    Sure, most of them have docs in some non-English languages, but rarely all of them. And things like StackOverflow answers, bug reports and discussions, tutorials, and blog posts tend to be mostly in English. Autotranslate works to some extent but can be misleading or confusing when dealing with specialized terms that aren't well represented in its corpus. My Japanese coworkers certainly need to be able to comprehend written English.
  - evantbyrne 2y ago
    Sure docs for massively popular libraries are translated but think about using autocomplete, reading the actual library code, or even just reading other code in your organization. I have to imagine it would be difficult without any English proficiency.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
princemaple 2y ago
Kinda. Some of them know all the English words in the programming language they code in, and not much else.
- lukan 2y ago
  Subset of the english language, is the right term I believe. (someone who had to learn english to do programming)
rtpg 2y ago
This is a bit environment dependent is my impression. Like France and Japan both have enough people shitty at English to generate either translations or home grown programming learning material to fight against this barrier. But my impression is that, like, a German programmer isn't getting far in life without being comfy reading stuff in English
notatoad 2y ago
for all intents and purposes, yes. relying on machine-translated documentation or limiting yourself to only using libraries written in your native language would be a huge impediment.
wisty 2y ago
A lot would probably be loan words anyway, and they're words many English speakers would also need to learn. Array, socket, database, loop, float, function, etc. If the stack overflow examples are in English, you might as well use it. That's also why JavaScript is maybe a better choice than Typescript even if Typescript is better.
pjc50 2y ago
Many non-English-language countries end up with most people who've been through higher education knowing at least some English, not only so they can handle sources but also so they can talk internationally to any other country as well as consume American media. It's also a status symbol. The smaller the language pool is the stronger this effect is. Japan is large enough that it's less guaranteed. Places like India and Indonesia that have a lot of internal languages end up using English as a lingua franca (+) as well. (+) latin term!

It’s harder to learn for sure. Majority of the resources are in English and it’s harder to internalise the keywords. But it’s definitely possible to program without knowing English.

sghiassy 2y ago
But like, you can’t program Java without English right? A for-loop has to be written in English?? I’m so confused haha
- FeteCommuniste 2y ago
  Yes, for Java in particular you need to know the various English keywords. At least I don’t think anyone has written a non-English Java variant that compiles to the JVM just as Java would.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- bentcorner 2y ago
  I imagine you could have a non-English toolchain, it's just uncommon. You may have to write a bunch of it yourself. Come to think of it, I wonder if there are language concepts that don't map to English that artificially restrict what we can program? For example would programming U->D, R->L in Chinese (vs L->R, U->D in English) result in easier to read programs somehow? Would being able to program using iconography (like a bunch of FE languages) result in more "screens" of text to aid understanding?
- 0x457 2y ago
  Yes, but you don't need to know what "for" and "while" mean in your language, you just need to know their behavior. The same way Arnold Schwarzenegger was acting without knowing much English - everything was phonetically spelled for him in early roles.
  - throw_pm23 2y ago
    Or when Kennedy said in Berlin "ich bin ein Berliner" reading from a cue card that said "bear-leaner" :)
- yk 2y ago
  You don't need to know that the keywords are actually english words. So to start the first program on a floppy on a C64 you would type load "*",8,1 and back then I didn't understand what load means any more than I understood what ,8,1 means, I just knew that if I press this sequence of letters it will start summer olympics.
- dragonwriter 2y ago
  > But like, you can’t program Java without English right? Sure you can, if you know Java, which is its own language distinct from any natural language. Conversely, you can't program in Java if you know English, but not Java. > A for-loop has to be written in English?? No, it has to be written in Java. It's true that Java keywords are mostly themselves borrowed from English (often by way of C++ or other computer languages rather than directly) with a use in Java that has some connection to the meaning in English, so its probably easier to learn Java if you already know English (even before considering that there is probably more and better documentation in English than other languages), but that's not the same as English being a requirement for programming Java.
- mikedelfino 2y ago
  A for loop and other syntax keywords are barely the only English people have to understand in programming. One could say that these could just as well be arbitrary symbols, and programmers would just memorize them. But think of all the concepts named in English such as exception, factory, facade, adapter, interface, iterator, needle, haystack, constructor, queue... you name it. Not to mention documentation. So yeah, some English is mandatory, even if we're not able to communicate properly. In some projects though it's not uncommon to use local language for the domain while still keeping technical concepts in English, like getAnniversaire() or PersonneTable.
- wongarsu 2y ago
  I learned Pascal before I learned many English words like "if". You don't need to know what "if" or "for" mean to remember those keywords or to know what they do.
- numpad0 2y ago
  It's like names of Pokemons. Every kids know that Bulbasaur is grass-poison typed and evolves into Ivysaur at Level 16. You have to memorize them all to be a good player and that's a whole load of nonsense! But that's not relatively huge undertaking, and nothing remotely like the full language.
- tharkun__ 2y ago
  If you know another language than English, try Microsoft Excel in that other language. And even if not, just for fun install a non-English version of Excel. They translated the keywords. Even if you've programmed in proper programming languages for years without knowing English, all the regular keywords to get stuff done you will know in English. And you won't be able to do a single thing in Excel coz none of the keywords work. One good thing I guess: You can honestly say when they ask you "hey, you know how to program computers, right? Can you help me with this problem in Excel" and you can honestly say: Nope, can't, no idea how that works. See it doesn't even have a simple IF. Example: https://easy-excel.com/excel-in-other-languages/excel-formulas-in-french/ https://easy-excel.com/excel-in-other-languages/excel-formul...

presentation 2y ago

Probably at least some, because most tools’ documentation are not going to be in your language – at least that’s how it is here in Japan. That said plenty of Japanese engineers who have very low English skill.

evantbyrne 2y ago

Not literally required, because languages typically support UTF-8 source files, but it would be difficult to use most popular software libraries without being able to at least read English.

sghiassy 2y ago
Now I want to program in Mandarin and be l33t
- fragmede 2y ago
  https://mariusbancila.ro/blog/2019/05/16/cpp-is-fun/ https://mariusbancila.ro/blog/2019/05/16/cpp-is-fun/
maximilianthe1 2y ago
Actually, most "most popular software libraries" have either translated docs, or guides in a non-English language. Furthermore, modern browsers can translate text on the fly. Some (like Yandex.Browser [1] not_an_ad) can even translate videos on the fly. [1] https://yandex.ru/project/browser/streams/technology https://yandex.ru/project/browser/streams/technology (RU only)
- autumnstwilight 2y ago
  Sure, most of them have docs in some non-English languages, but rarely all of them. And things like StackOverflow answers, bug reports and discussions, tutorials, and blog posts tend to be mostly in English. Autotranslate works to some extent but can be misleading or confusing when dealing with specialized terms that aren't well represented in its corpus. My Japanese coworkers certainly need to be able to comprehend written English.
- evantbyrne 2y ago
  Sure docs for massively popular libraries are translated but think about using autocomplete, reading the actual library code, or even just reading other code in your organization. I have to imagine it would be difficult without any English proficiency.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

princemaple 2y ago

Kinda. Some of them know all the English words in the programming language they code in, and not much else.

lukan 2y ago
Subset of the english language, is the right term I believe. (someone who had to learn english to do programming)

rtpg 2y ago

This is a bit environment dependent is my impression. Like France and Japan both have enough people shitty at English to generate either translations or home grown programming learning material to fight against this barrier. But my impression is that, like, a German programmer isn't getting far in life without being comfy reading stuff in English

notatoad 2y ago

for all intents and purposes, yes. relying on machine-translated documentation or limiting yourself to only using libraries written in your native language would be a huge impediment.

wisty 2y ago

A lot would probably be loan words anyway, and they're words many English speakers would also need to learn. Array, socket, database, loop, float, function, etc. If the stack overflow examples are in English, you might as well use it. That's also why JavaScript is maybe a better choice than Typescript even if Typescript is better.

pjc50 2y ago

Many non-English-language countries end up with most people who've been through higher education knowing at least some English, not only so they can handle sources but also so they can talk internationally to any other country as well as consume American media. It's also a status symbol. The smaller the language pool is the stronger this effect is. Japan is large enough that it's less guaranteed. Places like India and Indonesia that have a lot of internal languages end up using English as a lingua franca (+) as well. (+) latin term!