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The posts on CL are no more "Craigslist data" than videos on YouTube are "Google data". The data is submitted by the users for the express purpose of being see

The posts on CL are no more "Craigslist data" than videos on YouTube are "Google data". The data is submitted by the users for the express purpose of being seen by other people. Does anyone seriously argue that users listing flats on CL do not want their listing found by other avenues? It is clear that Padmapper is providing a service beneficial to both suppliers and consumers of rental properties, and CL is using the police power of the state to prevent that benefit. Why they're doing this is still a mystery to me.

res0nat0r 14y ago
The users of CL never agreed to let you copy their postings to whatever website you feel like, also it is against their TOS to do so: Any copying, aggregation, display, distribution, performance or derivative use of craigslist or any content posted on craigslist whether done directly or through intermediaries (including but not limited to by means of spiders, robots, crawlers, scrapers, framing, iframes or RSS feeds) is prohibited. As a limited exception, general purpose Internet search engines and noncommercial public archives will be entitled to access craigslist without individual written agreements executed with CL that specifically authorize an exception to this prohibition if, in all cases and individual instances: (a) they provide a direct hyperlink to the relevant craigslist website, service, forum or content; (b) they access craigslist from a stable IP address using an easily identifiable agent; and (c) they comply with CL's robots.txt file; provided however, that CL may terminate this limited exception as to any search engine or public archive (or any person or entity relying on this provision to access craigslist without their own written agreement executed with CL), at any time and in its sole discretion, upon written notice, including, without limitation, by email notice.
- scotty79 14y ago
  No they don't. They just have to check the stupid checbox that doesn't do anything because otherwise they can't post advertisment they wrote. I'd say cheking this checkbox is coerced. Also you may check it witout reading what's written next to it.
  - ceejayoz 14y ago
    Posting to Craigslist isn't a Constitutional right. Don't agree with the terms? Don't post there. No one's coercing.
    - stcredzero 14y ago
      Let me know if you rent your next place without it.
      - ceejayoz 14y ago
        I currently own, but my last place was rented in 2010 without Craigslist. It's entirely possible.
        stcredzero 14y ago
        Possible != practical in all cases.
        ceejayoz 14y ago
        There's no Constitutional right to a practical apartment hunt, either.
        stcredzero 14y ago
        There's also no constitutional right to uninstalling a browser and installing your own browser. That doesn't mean something isn't going wrong with the public's interests. When a group can interfere with how you hunt for a place to live something is up. Where you live is pretty fundamental.
        ceejayoz 14y ago
        > When a group can interfere with how you hunt for a place to live something is up. What entitled bullshit. People/companies do that all the time. Padmapper could've run out of money and shut themselves down - would you pursue a court injunction on the basis that they shouldn't be able to interfere with how you hunt for an apartment? How about if they changed the UI in a way you didn't like?
- usaar333 14y ago
  I would bet that 99% of CL users not only never read this TOS, but they also do not care if padmapper copies their listings.
  - res0nat0r 14y ago
    I've never read my credit card TOS, so I don't have to pay my bills right?
    - usaar333 14y ago
      What does that have to do anything? The point is that users do not care if other companies copy their listing data (and aren't even aware of such a restriction).
      - res0nat0r 14y ago
        How have you determined that every users listing on Padmapper doesn't care it has been scraped from CL and relisted? Did they contact every user and get their permission first?
        fffggg 14y ago
        It's not necessary for them to do so. It's incumbent upon CL to prove the infringement, not the other way around.
        deleted 14y ago
        [deleted]
    - vtry 14y ago
      Exactly, ignorance of the law is never an excuse! THen they make more laws
    - bjg 14y ago
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_analogy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_analogy
- ataggart 14y ago
  The notion that I am bound by whatever legalese someone happens to put on their publicly accessible website is absurd in the extreme; I am not the one checking the box to submit a post. CL is perfectly able to restrict read-access to those who agree to the terms, e.g., by requiring registration. That they choose not to is their choice, and the state should not be used as a substitute bludgeon whenever they dislike the unintended consequences. Furthermore, the publicly-accessible data isn't being copied, it's being consumed. I may consume the data to find an apartment. Someone might consume the data to calculate the average market prices in a city. Padmapper consumes the data to generate locations on a map.
  - res0nat0r 14y ago
    This makes no sense. You agree to the TOS when you post information to CL, not when you are just browsing for listings; that submitted information is what is bound by the TOS above. Also if you aren't the one checking the agree box, who is? From what you've written above it sounds like you believe any contract between two parties is absurd in the extreme.
  - ceejayoz 14y ago
    > The notion that I am bound by whatever legalese someone happens to put on their publicly accessible website is absurd in the extreme. Well, if nothing else, the submitting users' copyright applies. CL has a license to use it however they like, you don't.
- mckoss 14y ago
  Imagine that Padmapper were released as an alternative web browser. As an end user, I have the right to consume CL's content. Do they have a right to tell me which web browser I can and cannot use? Since CL offers their data freely to "the public", by what theory can they prevent the public from using their own chosen client browser to view it? Why should there be a distinction between software installed in my computer and a cloud-hosted application like Padmapper? I believe that Padmapper, as an agent acting on behalf of its users, has every right to reformat the information originating on CL as long as it does not purposefully seek to cause confusion about the origin of the data (which they do not as they link to the source).
deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
adunsmoor 14y ago
Even if you go with the "it's not their data" argument Craigslist would seem to own the specific compilation of the data. I'd apply the same copyright principle as phone books or encyclopedias. http://www.bitlaw.com/copyright/database.html http://www.bitlaw.com/copyright/database.html Craigslist invested in the infrastructure to enter, store, and display this information. They should be able to set their terms as to how it is used in aggregate.
- icebraining 14y ago
  You should read that link: the U.S. Supreme Court ruled that a compilation work such as a database must contain a minimum level of creativity in order to be protectable under the Copyright Act. The Supreme Court (...) held that Rural's white pages are not entitled to copyright protection, since the white pages did not meet the statutory requirement for originality under 17 U.S.C. §102(a). Cragslist is completely automated. There's absolutely no creativity involved. Craigslist invested in the infrastructure to enter, store, and display this information. They should be able to set their terms as to how it is used in aggregate. Unfortunately for them, "sweat of the brow" doesn't afford copyright protection in the US.
  - rprasad 14y ago
    You're right, sweat of the brow is irrelevant, which is why it is irrelevant that their process is now automated. The copyrightable aspects are in the collection, selection, and presentation of data, which is not required by law to be performed manually.
    - icebraining 14y ago
      It's relevant because it requires creativity; it's not automatically ruled out, but it makes it harder to claim. In any case, Craigslist is completely unoriginal in its selection and arrangement of the data; the selection is "whatever people submit" and the arrangement is LIFO. I find it very hard to believe they'll be awarded copyright over it.
  - SilasX 14y ago
qq66 14y ago
I don't really have a horse in the PadMapper/Craigslist debate but your analogy to YouTube is apt. I have a bunch of videos uploaded to YouTube, and I've permitted embedding because I know that even if a video is embedded somewhere I can still remove the video from my YouTube Channel Manager. When I upload a video to YouTube, I do expect to retain control of it solely through my interactions with YouTube, and expect that when I take it down it gets taken down across all Google properties. I would be pretty angry if I found that my videos were on another site which had scraped YouTube's data and now was hosting my video without any ability for me to remove it.

res0nat0r 14y ago

The users of CL never agreed to let you copy their postings to whatever website you feel like, also it is against their TOS to do so: Any copying, aggregation, display, distribution, performance or derivative use of craigslist or any content posted on craigslist whether done directly or through intermediaries (including but not limited to by means of spiders, robots, crawlers, scrapers, framing, iframes or RSS feeds) is prohibited. As a limited exception, general purpose Internet search engines and noncommercial public archives will be entitled to access craigslist without individual written agreements executed with CL that specifically authorize an exception to this prohibition if, in all cases and individual instances: (a) they provide a direct hyperlink to the relevant craigslist website, service, forum or content; (b) they access craigslist from a stable IP address using an easily identifiable agent; and (c) they comply with CL's robots.txt file; provided however, that CL may terminate this limited exception as to any search engine or public archive (or any person or entity relying on this provision to access craigslist without their own written agreement executed with CL), at any time and in its sole discretion, upon written notice, including, without limitation, by email notice.

scotty79 14y ago
No they don't. They just have to check the stupid checbox that doesn't do anything because otherwise they can't post advertisment they wrote. I'd say cheking this checkbox is coerced. Also you may check it witout reading what's written next to it.
- ceejayoz 14y ago
  Posting to Craigslist isn't a Constitutional right. Don't agree with the terms? Don't post there. No one's coercing.
  - stcredzero 14y ago
    Let me know if you rent your next place without it.
    - ceejayoz 14y ago
      I currently own, but my last place was rented in 2010 without Craigslist. It's entirely possible.
      - stcredzero 14y ago
        Possible != practical in all cases.
        ceejayoz 14y ago
        There's no Constitutional right to a practical apartment hunt, either.
        stcredzero 14y ago
        There's also no constitutional right to uninstalling a browser and installing your own browser. That doesn't mean something isn't going wrong with the public's interests. When a group can interfere with how you hunt for a place to live something is up. Where you live is pretty fundamental.
        ceejayoz 14y ago
        > When a group can interfere with how you hunt for a place to live something is up. What entitled bullshit. People/companies do that all the time. Padmapper could've run out of money and shut themselves down - would you pursue a court injunction on the basis that they shouldn't be able to interfere with how you hunt for an apartment? How about if they changed the UI in a way you didn't like?
usaar333 14y ago
I would bet that 99% of CL users not only never read this TOS, but they also do not care if padmapper copies their listings.
- res0nat0r 14y ago
  I've never read my credit card TOS, so I don't have to pay my bills right?
  - usaar333 14y ago
    What does that have to do anything? The point is that users do not care if other companies copy their listing data (and aren't even aware of such a restriction).
    - res0nat0r 14y ago
      How have you determined that every users listing on Padmapper doesn't care it has been scraped from CL and relisted? Did they contact every user and get their permission first?
      - fffggg 14y ago
        It's not necessary for them to do so. It's incumbent upon CL to prove the infringement, not the other way around.
        deleted 14y ago
        [deleted]
  - vtry 14y ago
    Exactly, ignorance of the law is never an excuse! THen they make more laws
  - bjg 14y ago
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_analogy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_analogy
ataggart 14y ago
The notion that I am bound by whatever legalese someone happens to put on their publicly accessible website is absurd in the extreme; I am not the one checking the box to submit a post. CL is perfectly able to restrict read-access to those who agree to the terms, e.g., by requiring registration. That they choose not to is their choice, and the state should not be used as a substitute bludgeon whenever they dislike the unintended consequences. Furthermore, the publicly-accessible data isn't being copied, it's being consumed. I may consume the data to find an apartment. Someone might consume the data to calculate the average market prices in a city. Padmapper consumes the data to generate locations on a map.
- res0nat0r 14y ago
  This makes no sense. You agree to the TOS when you post information to CL, not when you are just browsing for listings; that submitted information is what is bound by the TOS above. Also if you aren't the one checking the agree box, who is? From what you've written above it sounds like you believe any contract between two parties is absurd in the extreme.
- ceejayoz 14y ago
  > The notion that I am bound by whatever legalese someone happens to put on their publicly accessible website is absurd in the extreme. Well, if nothing else, the submitting users' copyright applies. CL has a license to use it however they like, you don't.
mckoss 14y ago
Imagine that Padmapper were released as an alternative web browser. As an end user, I have the right to consume CL's content. Do they have a right to tell me which web browser I can and cannot use? Since CL offers their data freely to "the public", by what theory can they prevent the public from using their own chosen client browser to view it? Why should there be a distinction between software installed in my computer and a cloud-hosted application like Padmapper? I believe that Padmapper, as an agent acting on behalf of its users, has every right to reformat the information originating on CL as long as it does not purposefully seek to cause confusion about the origin of the data (which they do not as they link to the source).

deleted 14y ago

[deleted]

adunsmoor 14y ago

Even if you go with the "it's not their data" argument Craigslist would seem to own the specific compilation of the data. I'd apply the same copyright principle as phone books or encyclopedias. http://www.bitlaw.com/copyright/database.html http://www.bitlaw.com/copyright/database.html Craigslist invested in the infrastructure to enter, store, and display this information. They should be able to set their terms as to how it is used in aggregate.

icebraining 14y ago
You should read that link: the U.S. Supreme Court ruled that a compilation work such as a database must contain a minimum level of creativity in order to be protectable under the Copyright Act. The Supreme Court (...) held that Rural's white pages are not entitled to copyright protection, since the white pages did not meet the statutory requirement for originality under 17 U.S.C. §102(a). Cragslist is completely automated. There's absolutely no creativity involved. Craigslist invested in the infrastructure to enter, store, and display this information. They should be able to set their terms as to how it is used in aggregate. Unfortunately for them, "sweat of the brow" doesn't afford copyright protection in the US.
- rprasad 14y ago
  You're right, sweat of the brow is irrelevant, which is why it is irrelevant that their process is now automated. The copyrightable aspects are in the collection, selection, and presentation of data, which is not required by law to be performed manually.
  - icebraining 14y ago
    It's relevant because it requires creativity; it's not automatically ruled out, but it makes it harder to claim. In any case, Craigslist is completely unoriginal in its selection and arrangement of the data; the selection is "whatever people submit" and the arrangement is LIFO. I find it very hard to believe they'll be awarded copyright over it.
- SilasX 14y ago

qq66 14y ago

I don't really have a horse in the PadMapper/Craigslist debate but your analogy to YouTube is apt. I have a bunch of videos uploaded to YouTube, and I've permitted embedding because I know that even if a video is embedded somewhere I can still remove the video from my YouTube Channel Manager. When I upload a video to YouTube, I do expect to retain control of it solely through my interactions with YouTube, and expect that when I take it down it gets taken down across all Google properties. I would be pretty angry if I found that my videos were on another site which had scraped YouTube's data and now was hosting my video without any ability for me to remove it.