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I was seriously considering buying an Ineos Grenadier because I wanted a nice, modern, safe solid axle 4x4 with decent towing capacity that'll last 50 years or

I was seriously considering buying an Ineos Grenadier because I wanted a nice, modern, safe solid axle 4x4 with decent towing capacity that'll last 50 years or so, but the complexity of that B57/58 and the ZF 8spd, let alone all the other electronic trash like parking sensors, lane sensors, etc scared me off. Theoretically I might be able to keep it running on that timescale with standalone controllers for the transmission and engine but the complexity is just too much. Also, plastic intake manifold? Lmao. So I bought an 80 Series Toyota. It only gets 1mpg less than the Grenadier. 30 years, all that complexity, and we gained 1mpg. I'm working on a 1HZ-T swap. So I'll have a 1 wire engine with a nice simple aftermarket transmission controller, and an exhaust brake. I should be getting around 20mpg hwy when that's done and 100k+mi from a set of brake pads. I'm confident I'll be able to keep this running for 50yr.

nickff 2y ago
>"So I bought an 80 Series Toyota. It only gets 1mpg less than the Grenadier. 30 years, all that complexity, and we gained 1mpg." The Grenadier complies with many emissions, collision, and other regulatory requirements than the Toyota, and it probably costs less than the series 80 did new (compensated for inflation).
- jcgrillo 2y ago
  You could be right on all counts. But I'm 100% confident I can keep my 80 series running another 50 years with relatively minimal work (occasionally rebuilding things, maybe some rust repair if I get lazy about rust prevention, etc.)--I can at least predict and understand all the problems I'll encounter, and none of them includes trying to reverse engineer a CAN network. I have very little confidence I'd actually be able to keep a Grenadier on the road forever. I suspect it's at most a 20yr car. We'll see maybe in 30 years I'll get a used one and prove myself wrong.
dotancohen 2y ago
> 30 years, all that complexity, and we gained 1mpg. We also got far lower tailpipe emissions, less expensive manufacturing processes, far better rust prevention, and far better passenger and pedestrian safety features. Not to mention a more comfortable ride, almost zero water intrusion, lower cabin noise and vibration, less wind and tire noise, and longer lasting consumables such as plugs, oil, tires, and filters.
- Waterluvian 2y ago
  It’s absolutely insane to me what a government success story auto safety regulations have been. They’re incredibly safer and yet the cost hasn’t gone crazy.
  - bombcar 2y ago
    Cars have stayed the same "real price" or gone down over long periods of time. It really is a testament to industrial manufacturing. Homebuilding regulations have had somewhat of a similar success, but the costs haven't stayed level - no economies of scale in manufacturing to exploit.
  - jcgrillo 2y ago
    Yeah it's true, it's a shame the consequences are so severe though. E.g. $1200 to replace a plastic bumper because it has some silly backup camera in it. I don't mind getting out of my car once or twice every time I need to hook up the trailer, and I learned to parallel park 22 years ago. I have no need for a backup camera and don't want to pay the penalty of owning one.
- jcgrillo 2y ago
  But is it worth the price? I concluded I'd rather build a vehicle that's simpler and better than the one I could buy. And it's costing me about 20% as much to do so. And it'll burn a hell of a lot less fuel.
  - dotancohen 2y ago
    Simpler? Sure. Better? I spent years in garages modifying and building street legal vehicles. On very few metrics were they better than what you could buy, then or now. If better means quicker, sure, you could do that. But it won't be safer, cheaper, more reliable, more efficient, lower polluting, or more comfortable than what you could buy from Ford or Toyota or Subaru or Tesla.
    - jcgrillo 2y ago

nickff 2y ago

>"So I bought an 80 Series Toyota. It only gets 1mpg less than the Grenadier. 30 years, all that complexity, and we gained 1mpg." The Grenadier complies with many emissions, collision, and other regulatory requirements than the Toyota, and it probably costs less than the series 80 did new (compensated for inflation).

jcgrillo 2y ago
You could be right on all counts. But I'm 100% confident I can keep my 80 series running another 50 years with relatively minimal work (occasionally rebuilding things, maybe some rust repair if I get lazy about rust prevention, etc.)--I can at least predict and understand all the problems I'll encounter, and none of them includes trying to reverse engineer a CAN network. I have very little confidence I'd actually be able to keep a Grenadier on the road forever. I suspect it's at most a 20yr car. We'll see maybe in 30 years I'll get a used one and prove myself wrong.

dotancohen 2y ago

> 30 years, all that complexity, and we gained 1mpg. We also got far lower tailpipe emissions, less expensive manufacturing processes, far better rust prevention, and far better passenger and pedestrian safety features. Not to mention a more comfortable ride, almost zero water intrusion, lower cabin noise and vibration, less wind and tire noise, and longer lasting consumables such as plugs, oil, tires, and filters.

Waterluvian 2y ago
It’s absolutely insane to me what a government success story auto safety regulations have been. They’re incredibly safer and yet the cost hasn’t gone crazy.
- bombcar 2y ago
  Cars have stayed the same "real price" or gone down over long periods of time. It really is a testament to industrial manufacturing. Homebuilding regulations have had somewhat of a similar success, but the costs haven't stayed level - no economies of scale in manufacturing to exploit.
- jcgrillo 2y ago
  Yeah it's true, it's a shame the consequences are so severe though. E.g. $1200 to replace a plastic bumper because it has some silly backup camera in it. I don't mind getting out of my car once or twice every time I need to hook up the trailer, and I learned to parallel park 22 years ago. I have no need for a backup camera and don't want to pay the penalty of owning one.
jcgrillo 2y ago
But is it worth the price? I concluded I'd rather build a vehicle that's simpler and better than the one I could buy. And it's costing me about 20% as much to do so. And it'll burn a hell of a lot less fuel.
- dotancohen 2y ago
  Simpler? Sure. Better? I spent years in garages modifying and building street legal vehicles. On very few metrics were they better than what you could buy, then or now. If better means quicker, sure, you could do that. But it won't be safer, cheaper, more reliable, more efficient, lower polluting, or more comfortable than what you could buy from Ford or Toyota or Subaru or Tesla.
  - jcgrillo 2y ago