5 ms·

[flagged]

by ryanisnan 2y ago

[flagged]

JTyQZSnP3cQGa8B 2y ago
> foreign nation-state backed organization I'm European, are you talking about Microsoft, Google, or OpenAI?
- doctaj 2y ago
  They’re referring to an organization (like a hacking group) backed by a country (like china, North Korea).
  - freehorse 2y ago
    So, which of them 3?
  - dylan604 2y ago
    You're missing the point that for a much larger portion of the world, all "tech" is a foreign entity to them
    - mrguyorama 2y ago
      Until recently treating the US and China on the same geopolitical level for allied countries would have been insanely uncharitable and impossible to do honestly and in good faith. But now we have a bully in the whitehouse who seems to want to literally steal neighboring land, or is throwing shit everywhere to distract from the looting and oligarchy being formed. So I suddenly have more empathy for that position.
teractiveodular 2y ago
DeepSeek is basically a startup, not a "foreign nation-state backed organization". They were forced to pivot to AI when their original business model (quant hedge fund) was stomped on by the Chinese government. Of course this is China so the government can and does intervene at will, but alleging that this required CIA level state espionage to pull off is alien crash levels of implausible. They open sourced the entire thing and published incredibly detailed papers on how they did it!
- byteknight 2y ago
  You may be unaware, but CCP has far more control over private companies than you might think: https://www.cna.org/our-media/indepth/2024/09/fused-together-the-chinese-communist-party-moves-inside-chinas-private-sector https://www.cna.org/our-media/indepth/2024/09/fused-together... This is not America. Your ideas do not apply the same way.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - baq 2y ago
    Naivety of some folks here is astounding… CCP has golden shares in anything that could possibly be important at some point in the next hundred years, and yes golden shares are either really that or they’re an euphemism, the point is it doesn’t even matter.
    - DiogenesKynikos 2y ago
      China has tens of millions of companies. The government can't, doesn't and isn't even interested in micromanaging all of them.
      - baq 2y ago
        It doesn’t have to micromanage. It doesn’t care about most. It is only interested in the politically important ones, but it needs the optionality if something becomes worthwhile.
        DiogenesKynikos 2y ago
        You're suggesting that DeepSeek was a Chinese government operation that gained access to OpenAI's proprietary data, and then you're justifying that by saying that the government effectively controls every important company. You're even chiding people who don't believe this as naive. I think you have a cartoonish view of China. A huge amount goes on that the government has no idea about. Now that DeepSeek has made a huge media splash, the Chinese government will certainly pay attention to them, but then again, so will the US government.
seanhunter 2y ago
I notice that your geographical perspective doesn’t stretch to any actual evidence that such a thing took place. So it really has exactly the same amount of supporting evidence as my alien crash reverse engineering scenario at present.
- ryanisnan 2y ago
  The surrounding facts matter a lot here. For example, there are plenty of instances of governments hacking companies of their competing nations. Motives are incredibly easy to come by as well, be they political or economical. We also have no proof that aliens exist at all, so you've not only conjured them into existence, but also their motive and their skills. Are you trolling me?
  - seanhunter 2y ago
    Ok so to be clear: your surrounding facts are they may have a motive and nation states hack people. I don’t disagree with those, but there really are no facts that support the idea that there was a hack in this case and the null hypothesis is that researchers all around the world (not just in the US) are working on this so not all breakthroughs are going to be made in the US. That could change if facts come to light but att the moment it’s not really useful to speculate on something that is in essence entirely made up. No I’m not trolling you.
- lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 2y ago
  > exactly the same amount of supporting evidence The evidence supporting offensive hacking is abundant in recent history; the number of things which have been learned from alien crash data is surely smaller by comparison to the number of things which have been learned from offensive hacking.
  - MomsAVoxell 2y ago
    More to the point, offensive hacking is something that all governments do, including the US, on a regular basis. However, there is no evidence this is how the data was obtained. Zero, zilch. So its a useless statement which only plays on peoples bias against their hated nation state de jour.

[flagged]

JTyQZSnP3cQGa8B 2y ago

> foreign nation-state backed organization I'm European, are you talking about Microsoft, Google, or OpenAI?

doctaj 2y ago
They’re referring to an organization (like a hacking group) backed by a country (like china, North Korea).
- freehorse 2y ago
  So, which of them 3?
- dylan604 2y ago
  You're missing the point that for a much larger portion of the world, all "tech" is a foreign entity to them
  - mrguyorama 2y ago
    Until recently treating the US and China on the same geopolitical level for allied countries would have been insanely uncharitable and impossible to do honestly and in good faith. But now we have a bully in the whitehouse who seems to want to literally steal neighboring land, or is throwing shit everywhere to distract from the looting and oligarchy being formed. So I suddenly have more empathy for that position.

teractiveodular 2y ago

DeepSeek is basically a startup, not a "foreign nation-state backed organization". They were forced to pivot to AI when their original business model (quant hedge fund) was stomped on by the Chinese government. Of course this is China so the government can and does intervene at will, but alleging that this required CIA level state espionage to pull off is alien crash levels of implausible. They open sourced the entire thing and published incredibly detailed papers on how they did it!

byteknight 2y ago
You may be unaware, but CCP has far more control over private companies than you might think: https://www.cna.org/our-media/indepth/2024/09/fused-together-the-chinese-communist-party-moves-inside-chinas-private-sector https://www.cna.org/our-media/indepth/2024/09/fused-together... This is not America. Your ideas do not apply the same way.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- baq 2y ago
  Naivety of some folks here is astounding… CCP has golden shares in anything that could possibly be important at some point in the next hundred years, and yes golden shares are either really that or they’re an euphemism, the point is it doesn’t even matter.
  - DiogenesKynikos 2y ago
    China has tens of millions of companies. The government can't, doesn't and isn't even interested in micromanaging all of them.
    - baq 2y ago
      It doesn’t have to micromanage. It doesn’t care about most. It is only interested in the politically important ones, but it needs the optionality if something becomes worthwhile.
      - DiogenesKynikos 2y ago
        You're suggesting that DeepSeek was a Chinese government operation that gained access to OpenAI's proprietary data, and then you're justifying that by saying that the government effectively controls every important company. You're even chiding people who don't believe this as naive. I think you have a cartoonish view of China. A huge amount goes on that the government has no idea about. Now that DeepSeek has made a huge media splash, the Chinese government will certainly pay attention to them, but then again, so will the US government.

seanhunter 2y ago

I notice that your geographical perspective doesn’t stretch to any actual evidence that such a thing took place. So it really has exactly the same amount of supporting evidence as my alien crash reverse engineering scenario at present.

ryanisnan 2y ago
The surrounding facts matter a lot here. For example, there are plenty of instances of governments hacking companies of their competing nations. Motives are incredibly easy to come by as well, be they political or economical. We also have no proof that aliens exist at all, so you've not only conjured them into existence, but also their motive and their skills. Are you trolling me?
- seanhunter 2y ago
  Ok so to be clear: your surrounding facts are they may have a motive and nation states hack people. I don’t disagree with those, but there really are no facts that support the idea that there was a hack in this case and the null hypothesis is that researchers all around the world (not just in the US) are working on this so not all breakthroughs are going to be made in the US. That could change if facts come to light but att the moment it’s not really useful to speculate on something that is in essence entirely made up. No I’m not trolling you.
lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 2y ago
> exactly the same amount of supporting evidence The evidence supporting offensive hacking is abundant in recent history; the number of things which have been learned from alien crash data is surely smaller by comparison to the number of things which have been learned from offensive hacking.
- MomsAVoxell 2y ago
  More to the point, offensive hacking is something that all governments do, including the US, on a regular basis. However, there is no evidence this is how the data was obtained. Zero, zilch. So its a useless statement which only plays on peoples bias against their hated nation state de jour.