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I use Debian, and never followed their account there. Like most "official" accounts that now make a big point of leaving X, they only posted a feed of their off

I use Debian, and never followed their account there. Like most "official" accounts that now make a big point of leaving X, they only posted a feed of their official pages and contribute nothing that would make it wortwhile to follow or interact with, anyway.

teddyh 2y ago
An explicit announcement like this, on the official news channel, is almost the definition of virtue signalling. If they don’t want to post to X, that’s fine, and an announcement on X would even be appropriate, and they could criticize X there, which would be useful information for other people using X. But a widely publicized post like this, to everybody not using X? It is obviously only done to signal virtue.
- corinroyal 2y ago
  It's good when people act based on morality and encourage others to do so.
- LeoPanthera 2y ago
  Using the phrase "virtue signaling" as a pejorative is iniquity signaling. In reality, it serves an important social function. Expressing ethical values signals to others that these values matter and encourages collective action. When enough people make similar choices, it can create economic and social pressure for change. Publicly aligning one's actions with one's principles isn't just about image. It's about fostering accountability, strengthening community values, and inspiring others to reflect on their own choices. In this way, "virtue signaling" can be a catalyst for meaningful social and economic reform.
  - hulitu 2y ago
    > Expressing ethical values signals to others that these values matter and encourages collective action. When, and only when, you follow them. See politician or priests for very bad examples.
    - angoragoats 2y ago
      Do you have any reason to believe that Debian does not follow its own ethical values?
      - teddyh 2y ago
        There are certainly some who think so: <https://danielpocock.com/blog/ https://danielpocock.com/blog/>
- angoragoats 2y ago
  You are spot on that they are demonstrating the virtuous, morally correct thing to do. Are you saying that’s bad? If so, why?
  - teddyh 2y ago
    Debian is an organization with an opinion on free software. Debian might also reasonably have an opinion about the centralized nature of X and similar platforms. They may even have opinions on the nature of proper discourse on its own discussion forums and similar venues they themselves control. But for Debian to have an opinion about political issues like this is a bit beyond their purview. People don’t, or should not be made to, sign up to support an organization with a definite position about everything under the sun. This would seem to me to be the opposite of diversity, a value they claim to support.
    - angoragoats 2y ago
      > People don’t, or should not be made to, sign up to support an organization with a definite position about everything under the sun. I agree. This is about one particular issue: whether they're going to continue hanging out at the Nazi bar, and as someone who doesn't hang out there, I for one appreciate learning their stance on it. It's a very important issue, and as you said above, it is absolutely the virtuous thing to do. > This would seem to me to be the opposite of diversity, a value they claim to support. If your definition of "diversity" includes treating white supremacists, Christian nationalists, rapists, violent criminals, etc on equal ground as everyone else, I think you should carefully examine your own morality.
      - deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
      - teddyh 2y ago
        There’s something to be said for the opposite approach. There is a Buddhist temple in Las Vegas, I think. “Only Nixon could go to China.”. But you are perhaps right in that Debian would be the wrong choice for this role; this would probably be better served by some more general human rights organization, of which I am sadly not informed enough to suggest one. > as someone who doesn't hang out there, I for one appreciate learning their stance on it. Why? You know you are not going to use X. The only benefit you could get from learning about Debian’s change of policy is only the dubious pleasure of having your preexisting beliefs validated. But this is all that Debian will accomplish with this kind of public wide announcement. People who do use X could just as well hear about it on X, and would not need a wider public announcement. This is why I called this “virtue signalling”: Debian is not making this announcement to everyone, Debian is announcing to everybody who does not use X that their decision is correct and that they are good and virtuous people. This is a very low and cheap way to get appreciation, and only worsens the politicization and polarization of the issue.

teddyh 2y ago

An explicit announcement like this, on the official news channel, is almost the definition of virtue signalling. If they don’t want to post to X, that’s fine, and an announcement on X would even be appropriate, and they could criticize X there, which would be useful information for other people using X. But a widely publicized post like this, to everybody not using X? It is obviously only done to signal virtue.

corinroyal 2y ago
It's good when people act based on morality and encourage others to do so.
LeoPanthera 2y ago
Using the phrase "virtue signaling" as a pejorative is iniquity signaling. In reality, it serves an important social function. Expressing ethical values signals to others that these values matter and encourages collective action. When enough people make similar choices, it can create economic and social pressure for change. Publicly aligning one's actions with one's principles isn't just about image. It's about fostering accountability, strengthening community values, and inspiring others to reflect on their own choices. In this way, "virtue signaling" can be a catalyst for meaningful social and economic reform.
- hulitu 2y ago
  > Expressing ethical values signals to others that these values matter and encourages collective action. When, and only when, you follow them. See politician or priests for very bad examples.
  - angoragoats 2y ago
    Do you have any reason to believe that Debian does not follow its own ethical values?
    - teddyh 2y ago
      There are certainly some who think so: <https://danielpocock.com/blog/ https://danielpocock.com/blog/>
angoragoats 2y ago
You are spot on that they are demonstrating the virtuous, morally correct thing to do. Are you saying that’s bad? If so, why?
- teddyh 2y ago
  Debian is an organization with an opinion on free software. Debian might also reasonably have an opinion about the centralized nature of X and similar platforms. They may even have opinions on the nature of proper discourse on its own discussion forums and similar venues they themselves control. But for Debian to have an opinion about political issues like this is a bit beyond their purview. People don’t, or should not be made to, sign up to support an organization with a definite position about everything under the sun. This would seem to me to be the opposite of diversity, a value they claim to support.
  - angoragoats 2y ago
    > People don’t, or should not be made to, sign up to support an organization with a definite position about everything under the sun. I agree. This is about one particular issue: whether they're going to continue hanging out at the Nazi bar, and as someone who doesn't hang out there, I for one appreciate learning their stance on it. It's a very important issue, and as you said above, it is absolutely the virtuous thing to do. > This would seem to me to be the opposite of diversity, a value they claim to support. If your definition of "diversity" includes treating white supremacists, Christian nationalists, rapists, violent criminals, etc on equal ground as everyone else, I think you should carefully examine your own morality.
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
    - teddyh 2y ago
      There’s something to be said for the opposite approach. There is a Buddhist temple in Las Vegas, I think. “Only Nixon could go to China.”. But you are perhaps right in that Debian would be the wrong choice for this role; this would probably be better served by some more general human rights organization, of which I am sadly not informed enough to suggest one. > as someone who doesn't hang out there, I for one appreciate learning their stance on it. Why? You know you are not going to use X. The only benefit you could get from learning about Debian’s change of policy is only the dubious pleasure of having your preexisting beliefs validated. But this is all that Debian will accomplish with this kind of public wide announcement. People who do use X could just as well hear about it on X, and would not need a wider public announcement. This is why I called this “virtue signalling”: Debian is not making this announcement to everyone, Debian is announcing to everybody who does not use X that their decision is correct and that they are good and virtuous people. This is a very low and cheap way to get appreciation, and only worsens the politicization and polarization of the issue.