9 ms·

I'm (we all are) constantly reminded to update our phones to latest available updates, but sh*t like this is what teaches users to instead disable and ignore up

by j1elo 2y ago

I'm (we all are) constantly reminded to update our phones to latest available updates, but sh*t like this is what teaches users to instead disable and ignore updates indefinitely, under the premise of "if it works don't touch it" (addendum: "... because most probably an update will break it") And here I am, ignoring updates on my Pixel 6a since October 2024 (there were reports of crashes or bricking, what a surprise) and planning to keep doing that for the foreseeable future. Sucks having to choose between a potentially (even likely, seeing the trend) broken device or an unsecured one. Pick your poison.

OsrsNeedsf2P 2y ago
Google 4a user here. They pushed an update while I was on a ski trip in Korea - I updated an hour before getting on my bus and.. the application launcher started crashing on unlock. I couldn't open any apps. Thankfully, I was able to get into the settings and switch to Lawnchair without a working "desktop UI", but without a second application launcher I would have been totally screwed. I checked the Play Store afterwards and saw hundreds of people with the same issue. On Linux I can choose which "security" updates to install, and only install those. Why can't Windows and Android provide such a feature?
- TonyTrapp 2y ago
  Stuff like this is why I keep printing entrance tickets and the like. I don't want to end up in a situation where I have to trust software that is known to have new bugs every months to get into a place without any sort of backup.
  - Suppafly 2y ago
    >Stuff like this is why I keep printing entrance tickets and the like. I almost got completely screwed by my pixel updating right before a concert while I was already out of town. Luckily my wife was able to login to my computer and forward the tickets to someone else that I was with, but it was a close call because she was walking out the door to do something herself when I managed to get ahold of her.
  - sidewndr46 2y ago
    This works until you start attending events that require you to present your cell phone for entrance
    - encom 2y ago
      What? For what purpose? I've never heard of or encountered this.
      - geoffpado 2y ago
        Some concerts have tickets that refresh every N seconds, ostensibly to prevent counterfeiting. https://conduition.io/coding/ticketmaster/ https://conduition.io/coding/ticketmaster/ In this case, if you don’t have a phone that can display Ticketmaster’s code, you’re just SOL, since they decided to break being able to just print out your code.
      - sidewndr46 2y ago
        as others mention ticket master seems to do this for some venues and events
        encom 2y ago
        As if I needed another reason to hate Ticketmaster.
- kllrnohj 2y ago
  > Why can't Windows and Android provide such a feature? Windows does. Android "can't" because the OS is a partition image with libraries not intended to be updated piecemeal, not a collection of loosely related external projects like Linux is.
  - AnthonyMouse 2y ago
    Nothing actually requires Android to be that way. They chose poorly but every new release is an opportunity to fix it.
    - kllrnohj 2y ago
      > They chose poorly Did they? Immutable system images are a pretty solid feature to have. It's a lot less "fall over broken as shit randomly" than desktop Linux is...
      - duskwuff 2y ago
        Piecemeal updates are also absolute hell to support - they rapidly lead to an untestable combinatorial explosion of possible software loadouts. Even Ubuntu doesn't officially support installing packages from a mixture of point releases (e.g. installing Ubuntu 24.10 packages on the 24.04 LTS); it might be technically possible, but if anything breaks, you get to keep the pieces.
      - AnthonyMouse 2y ago
        Desktop Linux doesn't actually do that unless you're trying to use a rolling release distribution. The way stable distributions work is that the packages largely remain the same for a given major version throughout its lifespan, but individual packages can still receive security updates.
        kllrnohj 2y ago
        I've had "stable" distributions fall over upgrading between their major versions. But you missed the point that Android's system image is immutable and updates are atomic. A user can't screw it up. This is not an insignificant feature, and it's something you also get with something like Fedora Silverblue. Which then also doesn't let you pick and choose what updates to get.
- Suppafly 2y ago
  >Google 4a user here. They pushed an update while I was on a ski trip in Korea - I updated an hour before getting on my bus and.. the application launcher started crashing on unlock. I couldn't open any apps. I had that happen like a year ago while I was getting ready to go to a concert in another state. Luckily I was able to call my wife have her login to my gmail and forward my digital tickets to someone else in my party.
- eldaisfish 2y ago
  Nonsense like this is why I personally will never buy a google hardware product ever again. It is also why it is so difficult to recommend an android phone because of google being an advert company first.
  - Freak_NL 2y ago
    The other side of the coin is that the Pixels are one of the few (only?) devices supported by GrapheneOS. (My Pixel 6 is rock solid on that by the way.)
    - eldaisfish 2y ago
      I had a nexus 5x and then a pixel 4a. The latter I bought used as a burner phone. This is the core problem - it is a roll of the dice whether your hardware will work five years from today. I’m less concerned about the software but that is also a problem. Meanwhile, my iPhone SE from 2016 still works as advertised.
      - deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
  - ycombinatrix 2y ago
    apple is an advertising company too. what's the alternative?
    - AnthonyMouse 2y ago
      Something like CalyxOS on Fairphone, presumably.
    - 2muchcoffeeman 2y ago
      Apple also has an advertising company. And they track you, but they get money by selling you stuff mostly. I’m deep into the Apple ecosystem system and they don’t force updates, try to upsell me every time updates are installed. I have no ads on the apps I use. They are quite happy for you to fork over gobs of money and call it a day. Googles primary source of income is ads. All this stuff they do is the primary way they get money. People need to stop being surprised this is where they ended up.
2OEH8eoCRo0 2y ago
I think security updates are mostly BS designed to make users voluntarily give up control. Almost nobody would ever be affected by these CVEs but the ceding of control affects everyone.
hysan 2y ago
I was visiting my parents for the holidays and came across this exact mindset. I usually push them to update for security, but I learned that they stopped doing that this year. Apparently some update broke/removed/changed an accessibility feature on their phone in a way that I couldn’t figure out how to revert. My mom had updated her phone first so only she was affected. My dad now refuses to update his phone and both of them have completely stopped updating for fear that something else will “break”. I can’t really blame them, but it does worry me and now I’m trying to think of what I can do to secure their devices if they’re not going to update.
- coldpie 2y ago
  Hmm. Assuming Android, install Firefox with uBlock Origin, and hide the Chrome and App Store launchers someplace deep?
  - hysan 2y ago
    It’s not an ad thing. It was an OS level accessibility feature dealing with text sizing and other reading related settings.
    - coldpie 2y ago
      Sorry, I should have quoted your post. I was responding to this portion: > now I’m trying to think of what I can do to secure their devices if they’re not going to update
      - hysan 2y ago
        Gotcha. That might help somewhat but it wouldn’t solve the “never update Android or any other app” problem. I’d also have to get them used to using a new browser. It’s a larger problem that their trust in tech was easily (possibly irreversibly) broken after years of me slowly convincing them and getting them used to letting their devices update. They are even older now and having had a stint working in the senior care tech space, I know that trying to tech the older generation to use tech safely is a very high hurdle. Now that I don’t live near them, I’m not sure that’s a hurdle that can be easily overcome.
behnamoh 2y ago
The way Google botched the Android 11 update to my Pixel 4a was the nail in the coffin in convincing me to go back to iPhone. I don't want to upgrade my Android and see a totally different UI every single time. I want consistency and I don't want Google to mess with things that already work. This is very childish on their side and just shows that Google engineers and managers don't use their own products.
- ycombinatrix 2y ago
  >I don't want Google to mess with things that already work. Unfortunately, that is exactly how Google rewards performance internally
spencerflem 2y ago
It's crazy- I feel like outside of videogames, and sometimes programming languages, almost every single "update" makes things worse. They shuffle the UI around, or put in more ads, or recently- add some new AI feature. Genuinely can't remember the last OS or App update I've been happy about. Makes me sad to think of all the developers working long hours just to make their users upset.
StressedDev 2y ago
If you ignore updates, you will get hacked. If you think a bad update is a problem, wait until you have to clean up a hack. It will cost more money and take more time than buying a new phone. My advice is to buy phones from reputable manufacturers. I have had an iPhone for over 10 years and I have been very happy. The work well, last, and the performance is always good. My current goal is to keep my current phone 7 years. I will update it when Apple stops supplying updates.
- fsflover 2y ago
  > My advice is to buy phones from reputable manufacturers. You mean those slowing down your phone on updates [0] and not providing critical security updates in time [1] while not allowing existing more secure alternative browsers [2]? The true alternative is phones running mainline Linux. Sent from my Librem 5. [0] https://www.npr.org/2020/11/18/936268845/apple-agrees-to-pay-113-million-to-settle-batterygate-case-over-iphone-slowdowns https://www.npr.org/2020/11/18/936268845/apple-agrees-to-pay... [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42780816 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42780816 [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/context?id=42859836 https://news.ycombinator.com/context?id=42859836
  - StressedDev 2y ago
    My iPhone is over 5 years old and has not slowed down. When Apple did slow down phones, it was because the battery was aging and it could not produce enough power to power the CPU at full speed. Apple had two choices: 1) Reduce the CPU speed so the phone did not crash 2) Not reduce the CPU speed and let the phone crash when the battery could not produce enough power. I think Apple made the right choice.
    - fsflover 2y ago
      The case in my link clearly shows that many people have a different opinion.
      - scarface_74 2y ago
floydnoel 2y ago
I wonder how long it will take for users to stop trusting anything from G..

by j1elo 2y ago

OsrsNeedsf2P 2y ago

Google 4a user here. They pushed an update while I was on a ski trip in Korea - I updated an hour before getting on my bus and.. the application launcher started crashing on unlock. I couldn't open any apps. Thankfully, I was able to get into the settings and switch to Lawnchair without a working "desktop UI", but without a second application launcher I would have been totally screwed. I checked the Play Store afterwards and saw hundreds of people with the same issue. On Linux I can choose which "security" updates to install, and only install those. Why can't Windows and Android provide such a feature?

TonyTrapp 2y ago
Stuff like this is why I keep printing entrance tickets and the like. I don't want to end up in a situation where I have to trust software that is known to have new bugs every months to get into a place without any sort of backup.
- Suppafly 2y ago
  >Stuff like this is why I keep printing entrance tickets and the like. I almost got completely screwed by my pixel updating right before a concert while I was already out of town. Luckily my wife was able to login to my computer and forward the tickets to someone else that I was with, but it was a close call because she was walking out the door to do something herself when I managed to get ahold of her.
- sidewndr46 2y ago
  This works until you start attending events that require you to present your cell phone for entrance
  - encom 2y ago
    What? For what purpose? I've never heard of or encountered this.
    - geoffpado 2y ago
      Some concerts have tickets that refresh every N seconds, ostensibly to prevent counterfeiting. https://conduition.io/coding/ticketmaster/ https://conduition.io/coding/ticketmaster/ In this case, if you don’t have a phone that can display Ticketmaster’s code, you’re just SOL, since they decided to break being able to just print out your code.
    - sidewndr46 2y ago
      as others mention ticket master seems to do this for some venues and events
      - encom 2y ago
        As if I needed another reason to hate Ticketmaster.
kllrnohj 2y ago
> Why can't Windows and Android provide such a feature? Windows does. Android "can't" because the OS is a partition image with libraries not intended to be updated piecemeal, not a collection of loosely related external projects like Linux is.
- AnthonyMouse 2y ago
  Nothing actually requires Android to be that way. They chose poorly but every new release is an opportunity to fix it.
  - kllrnohj 2y ago
    > They chose poorly Did they? Immutable system images are a pretty solid feature to have. It's a lot less "fall over broken as shit randomly" than desktop Linux is...
    - duskwuff 2y ago
      Piecemeal updates are also absolute hell to support - they rapidly lead to an untestable combinatorial explosion of possible software loadouts. Even Ubuntu doesn't officially support installing packages from a mixture of point releases (e.g. installing Ubuntu 24.10 packages on the 24.04 LTS); it might be technically possible, but if anything breaks, you get to keep the pieces.
    - AnthonyMouse 2y ago
      Desktop Linux doesn't actually do that unless you're trying to use a rolling release distribution. The way stable distributions work is that the packages largely remain the same for a given major version throughout its lifespan, but individual packages can still receive security updates.
      - kllrnohj 2y ago
        I've had "stable" distributions fall over upgrading between their major versions. But you missed the point that Android's system image is immutable and updates are atomic. A user can't screw it up. This is not an insignificant feature, and it's something you also get with something like Fedora Silverblue. Which then also doesn't let you pick and choose what updates to get.
Suppafly 2y ago
>Google 4a user here. They pushed an update while I was on a ski trip in Korea - I updated an hour before getting on my bus and.. the application launcher started crashing on unlock. I couldn't open any apps. I had that happen like a year ago while I was getting ready to go to a concert in another state. Luckily I was able to call my wife have her login to my gmail and forward my digital tickets to someone else in my party.
eldaisfish 2y ago
Nonsense like this is why I personally will never buy a google hardware product ever again. It is also why it is so difficult to recommend an android phone because of google being an advert company first.
- Freak_NL 2y ago
  The other side of the coin is that the Pixels are one of the few (only?) devices supported by GrapheneOS. (My Pixel 6 is rock solid on that by the way.)
  - eldaisfish 2y ago
    I had a nexus 5x and then a pixel 4a. The latter I bought used as a burner phone. This is the core problem - it is a roll of the dice whether your hardware will work five years from today. I’m less concerned about the software but that is also a problem. Meanwhile, my iPhone SE from 2016 still works as advertised.
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
- ycombinatrix 2y ago
  apple is an advertising company too. what's the alternative?
  - AnthonyMouse 2y ago
    Something like CalyxOS on Fairphone, presumably.
  - 2muchcoffeeman 2y ago
    Apple also has an advertising company. And they track you, but they get money by selling you stuff mostly. I’m deep into the Apple ecosystem system and they don’t force updates, try to upsell me every time updates are installed. I have no ads on the apps I use. They are quite happy for you to fork over gobs of money and call it a day. Googles primary source of income is ads. All this stuff they do is the primary way they get money. People need to stop being surprised this is where they ended up.

2OEH8eoCRo0 2y ago

I think security updates are mostly BS designed to make users voluntarily give up control. Almost nobody would ever be affected by these CVEs but the ceding of control affects everyone.

hysan 2y ago

I was visiting my parents for the holidays and came across this exact mindset. I usually push them to update for security, but I learned that they stopped doing that this year. Apparently some update broke/removed/changed an accessibility feature on their phone in a way that I couldn’t figure out how to revert. My mom had updated her phone first so only she was affected. My dad now refuses to update his phone and both of them have completely stopped updating for fear that something else will “break”. I can’t really blame them, but it does worry me and now I’m trying to think of what I can do to secure their devices if they’re not going to update.

coldpie 2y ago
Hmm. Assuming Android, install Firefox with uBlock Origin, and hide the Chrome and App Store launchers someplace deep?
- hysan 2y ago
  It’s not an ad thing. It was an OS level accessibility feature dealing with text sizing and other reading related settings.
  - coldpie 2y ago
    Sorry, I should have quoted your post. I was responding to this portion: > now I’m trying to think of what I can do to secure their devices if they’re not going to update
    - hysan 2y ago
      Gotcha. That might help somewhat but it wouldn’t solve the “never update Android or any other app” problem. I’d also have to get them used to using a new browser. It’s a larger problem that their trust in tech was easily (possibly irreversibly) broken after years of me slowly convincing them and getting them used to letting their devices update. They are even older now and having had a stint working in the senior care tech space, I know that trying to tech the older generation to use tech safely is a very high hurdle. Now that I don’t live near them, I’m not sure that’s a hurdle that can be easily overcome.

behnamoh 2y ago

The way Google botched the Android 11 update to my Pixel 4a was the nail in the coffin in convincing me to go back to iPhone. I don't want to upgrade my Android and see a totally different UI every single time. I want consistency and I don't want Google to mess with things that already work. This is very childish on their side and just shows that Google engineers and managers don't use their own products.

ycombinatrix 2y ago
>I don't want Google to mess with things that already work. Unfortunately, that is exactly how Google rewards performance internally

spencerflem 2y ago

It's crazy- I feel like outside of videogames, and sometimes programming languages, almost every single "update" makes things worse. They shuffle the UI around, or put in more ads, or recently- add some new AI feature. Genuinely can't remember the last OS or App update I've been happy about. Makes me sad to think of all the developers working long hours just to make their users upset.

StressedDev 2y ago

If you ignore updates, you will get hacked. If you think a bad update is a problem, wait until you have to clean up a hack. It will cost more money and take more time than buying a new phone. My advice is to buy phones from reputable manufacturers. I have had an iPhone for over 10 years and I have been very happy. The work well, last, and the performance is always good. My current goal is to keep my current phone 7 years. I will update it when Apple stops supplying updates.

fsflover 2y ago
> My advice is to buy phones from reputable manufacturers. You mean those slowing down your phone on updates [0] and not providing critical security updates in time [1] while not allowing existing more secure alternative browsers [2]? The true alternative is phones running mainline Linux. Sent from my Librem 5. [0] https://www.npr.org/2020/11/18/936268845/apple-agrees-to-pay-113-million-to-settle-batterygate-case-over-iphone-slowdowns https://www.npr.org/2020/11/18/936268845/apple-agrees-to-pay... [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42780816 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42780816 [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/context?id=42859836 https://news.ycombinator.com/context?id=42859836
- StressedDev 2y ago
  My iPhone is over 5 years old and has not slowed down. When Apple did slow down phones, it was because the battery was aging and it could not produce enough power to power the CPU at full speed. Apple had two choices: 1) Reduce the CPU speed so the phone did not crash 2) Not reduce the CPU speed and let the phone crash when the battery could not produce enough power. I think Apple made the right choice.
  - fsflover 2y ago
    The case in my link clearly shows that many people have a different opinion.
    - scarface_74 2y ago

floydnoel 2y ago

I wonder how long it will take for users to stop trusting anything from G..