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Amazon Career Choice Program

158 points by jergason 14y ago

davewicket 14y ago
again?
notjustanymike 14y ago
For a company who has repeatedly come under fire for hellish work conditions in their warehouses, a tuition reimbursement program seems like a rather pathetic PR nod. What hourly employee of theirs is going to have the time and 3 year commitment to earn this reward? Never mind the fact that most of their employees are temps from external agencies.
- WalterSear 14y ago
  And all for a measily $1900.
- ybother 14y ago
  "repeatedly"? Source? I've worked in Amazon warehouses and they are far and above any other workhouse job in terms of both safety, pay and workload required. Granted, I only worked at 2 different Amazon warehouses so my sample small is probably smaller than yours.
  - rickmb 14y ago
    It all depends on what your standards are. The working conditions at Amazon warehouses as reported repeatedly by the press would be completely illegal in most Western countries outside the US.
    - tomkarlo 14y ago
      Well, that's meaningless, given that they're in that US. By that logic, the working conditions at most white-collar jobs in the US would also be below your standards, as many EU countries require more vacation, shorter hours (France) and other work rules that don't apply here in the US. You can't expect Amazon or Walmart to adhere to the laws of a country a facility's not located in. If you think the laws aren't strict enough, then change the laws.
      - lancewiggs 14y ago
        Well we should expect that to happen. we should expect companies to have their own standards which are superior to the mandated minimums. Apple are doing this with sourcing. The big mining firms, like BHP Billiton, often apply much higher environmental and safety standards than the local laws. I saw this in a plant in Mozambique, several in South Africa and Australia and one in Colombia. Australia had the toughest laws, but even there the imposed corporate standards were higher than the minimum. It's the right thing to do, but it's also just good business to treat your staff and environment well.
        politician 14y ago
        No, Apple is doing this because of pressure from their consumer base in the US, and not from an altruistic sense of right and wrong. It's just good business.
patdennis 14y ago
Key information that's missing from the title: up to a maximum of $2,000 per year
- Foy 14y ago
  I got through the bulk of the page thinking, "Hey, this isn't so bad". But when I got to the $2,000 maximum part I had to stop and re-read it... What's vocational tuition like in the States? Is $2,000/year for 4 years actually going to cover most, or any of it?
  - baddox 14y ago
    Four years ago I went to a community college in the rural Midwest, and $2,000 a year would probably just barely cover tuition and books. And that was by far the cheapest school I have ever encountered.
    - ars 14y ago
      Full time or part time? I assume anyone taking advantage of this would be going part time, so the tuition would be lower.
      - baddox 14y ago
        I'm not sure what those terms means, but I was taking around 15 credit hours per semester. I also had a part time job, so I don't know if you would call that "full time" school.
        influx 14y ago
        Full time in my University was >= 12 credit hours per semester.
        Foy 14y ago
        At my school, "full time" meant 4 or 5 courses per term. "Part time" was 3, 2 or 1.Also there were three terms per year. So if a credit hour is an hour of class per week. Our classes all had 3 hours per week, so 4 classes is 12 credit hours and 5 classes is 15 credit hours. That fits the bill. I think I understand now. I just hadn't been thinking of it in terms of "credit hours".
sriram_sun 14y ago
you couldn't cover tuition in India for $2K/yr unless you go to a Govt. (public) college.
tarice 14y ago
Judging from this news article[1], it seems like there aren't many warehouse workers that 1) work there full-time, 2) have worked for 3 years, and 3) have the free time to pursue a degree. Then again, the money may be targeted towards warehouse managers, who Amazon could see as potential higher-ups in the main organization if they had formal training. [1] http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/02/mac-mcclelland-free-online-shipping-warehouses-labor http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/02/mac-mcclelland-f...
lizthegrey 14y ago
Duplicate article (http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4279905 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4279905), with misleading title this time. This does not apply to the vast majority of warehouse employees. http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4280530 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4280530
jellicle 14y ago
Okay, that's peachy. Here's the flipside: --most people working in Amazon warehouses are employed by temporary staffing firms, not Amazon --most people working in Amazon warehouses don't come anywhere near 3 years of tenure before quitting or being fired --reimbursement is limited to $2,000/year for four years, while $5,000/year is pretty much the minimum direct cost to take such programs --the program is limited to full-time workers, so only those who can take classes while working full-time and mandatory-or-you-get-fired overtime can partake The number of warehouse workers eligible for this is nearly zero. Might even be precisely zero.
- allritenow 14y ago
  I left Amazon just over a year ago, but have just over two years as a manager across three of their large fulfillment centers. I can offer some perspective: -- Yes, the ratio of temp associates to "blue badge" Amazon associates can be 50/50 at best during off-peak (though trending worse as Amazon expands) and during peak season temps will be 80% of the workforce. And yes, temps get absolutely nothing from Amazon as far as benefits. This is in stark contrast to a company they own - Zappos. -- Very few tier 1 associates made it three years. Very, very few. On my last shift of about 50 associates, I can only think of about 5, and this was one of the older fulfillment centers. -- Maybe it has changed, but there was no option to work part-time. Standard shifts are 10 hours. Mandatory OT can be frequent off-peak and is every week during peak. I had plenty of associates that took college classes during the day (I managed on nights). They did it, but were really dragging ass at night. They got maybe two or three hours of sleep a day. Many just couldn't make their productivity goals and would eventually quit before being fired. This initiative is what I would call a good start, and better than nothing. But as some have mentioned, the ability to move to a part-time schedule would be nice. As would a higher reimbursement amount. But maybe that will come in the future.
  - pnathan 14y ago
    "Standard shifts are 10 hours. Mandatory OT can be frequent off-peak and is every week during peak" That's pretty rough. What's the benefit to Amazon of doing 10-hour shifts instead of, say, 8?
donnfelker 14y ago
While some may argue this is not much in regards to tuition, this can get you VERY far in a community college. See this tuition graph here: http://www.maricopa.edu/about/?tuition http://www.maricopa.edu/about/?tuition I went to Maricopa community colleges and I had better instruction there than I had at the big schools. The best teachers I had were at community college. So while some argue its not much, its almost enough to cover your tuition for a year at a community college. If someone has the drive, they'll go do it and take advantage of the program.
- xyzzyb 14y ago
  I absolutely agree. I attended College of the Albemarle for two years before transferring into UNC-Chapel Hill. The teaching quality at COA was astoundingly much higher at COA than at UNC. At UNC most of my classes, even at the higher level, were taught by graduate students who had clearly received little to no instruction on how to effectively teach. They were there to learn and research, not to teach. At COA my classes were taught by professors with a graduate degree in the field (usually a PhD) who were dedicated to the art of teaching. They were there to teach, not to research. Of course higher education should be dedicated to research and expanding our knowledge, but that doesn't mean that they are good at sharing the basics.
  - elangoc 14y ago
    Hmm, never heard of College of Albermarle. I don't disbelieve you -- most survey courses get taught in the 50-300 person seater rooms at UNC-CH. I just don't recall grad students teaching most of my courses, even the survey courses, whether they were in CS or Math (my majors) or the graduation requirements from social sciences, philosophy, etc. I had only one course taught by a grad student -- graphics. Which was your major at UNC-CH?
    - xyzzyb 14y ago
      My degree is in History. I also took a lot of math and computer science courses: all but one of my math courses was taught by a grad student. All but a few of my history courses were taught by grad students. Since I transferred in I never actually took one of the 100+ person courses.
ehao 14y ago
Again? This feels like Amazon PR is spamming HN...
mangler 14y ago
In all fairness, allowing people who are unhappy, in a first warehouse job, or in skilled occupations to train themselves out of their unhappiness is a very novel and extremely favourable idea. This is like saying, it's not you, here's a chance, take your time, we'll help you and then move on when you are ready. I wish every company did that... It is way better than laying you off and even more superior to keeping you in a job you resent and do just because you need to pay the bills...
icco 14y ago
Question: would Amazon hire anyone with just an associates degree?
eli 14y ago
No doubt this is partly in response to articles like this: http://articles.mcall.com/2011-09-18/news/mc-allentown-amazon-complaints-20110917_1_warehouse-workers-heat-stress-brutal-heat http://articles.mcall.com/2011-09-18/news/mc-allentown-amazo... which describe surprisingly poor working conditions in an Amazon warehouse in rural PA. "During summer heat waves, Amazon arranged to have paramedics parked in ambulances outside, ready to treat any workers who dehydrated or suffered other forms of heat stress. Those who couldn't quickly cool off and return to work were sent home or taken out in stretchers and wheelchairs and transported to area hospitals. And new applicants were ready to begin work at any time."
whit537 14y ago
"[...] whether that's at Amazon or in another industry." Because, you know, Amazon is the only player in its industry. Oh wait ...
droithomme 14y ago
This program only covers inexpensive two year community college degrees, and only for a small number of subjects. The subject limitation I can understand, it's not unreasonable for the employer to lock out degrees that they feel might not directly benefit the company. But the two year degree restriction, which locks out all serious degrees and universities, has no justification other than being incredibly cheap on reimbursements. It would be better to have nothing at all since community college tuition isn't that expensive to begin with. If I was there I'd interpret this limitation as more of an insult than anything, and I have no doubt that many there will see it the same way once they look into the details.
- HeyLaughingBoy 14y ago
  Explain how it could possibly be better to have no program at all?
  - Klinky 14y ago
    By creating a program such as this it deflects attention from the working conditions of Amazon's employees while actually doing very little to benefit them.
    - HeyLaughingBoy 14y ago
      I understand that you may think that $2k/year is very little, but to many people it's a small fortune. Anyway, why do you think it's necessary to deflect attention from their working conditions? Warehouses aren't the most comfortable working environments in any case, that should not be surprising. Not everything can be a nice air conditioned office.
      - Klinky 14y ago
        I agree that $2,000 is a decent chunk of change, but as has been pointed out by others the hoops to jump through to get the $2,000 excludes a huge quantity of Amazon's workforce. So again, Amazon gets good PR, while conditions and compensation for much of their workforce stays the same.
hosh 14y ago
Sounds like Amazon is telegraphing its intentions for increasing automation in warehouses, a la Zappos. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fdd6sQ8Cbe0 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fdd6sQ8Cbe0
lsc 14y ago
"Unlike traditional tuition reimbursement programs, we exclusively fund education only in areas that are well-paying and in high demand according to sources like the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics, and we fund those areas regardless of whether those skills are relevant to a career at Amazon. In addition, the Amazon Career Choice Program will pay tuition and fees in advance rather than reimbursement after the completion of the course." That is /really interesting/ I mean, why? from an employer's perspective, it seems like you'd keep your low-skilled employees longer if you helped them pursue their dream of, you know, something unemployable. (I mean, assuming they are going to learn something that doesn't help amazon, amazon keeps people longer if they learn something that isn't in demand.)
rabidsnail 14y ago
This, combined with the recent Kiva Systems acquisition, makes me suspect a layoff is on the horizon.
orbitingpluto 14y ago
I just took a peak on glassdoor.com. Average salary for a "Amazon.com Warehouse Associate Salary": $24,756 With 10 hour days (as mentioned in the comments) that works out to be... disgusting.
keeptrying 14y ago
A friend of mine commented that this is just a way to minimize the negative impact for when Amazon substitutes employees with Kiva robots.
AYBABTME 14y ago
I find it's kinda cheap. 2000$ per year... looks more like recruitment marketing without too much commitment, than an actual initiative for the well-beings of the employees. I like to think "do things right, or don't do them". In that case, I'd prefer if Amazon would go all the way and give maybe, 5..8k$, or give nothing at all. 2k$ a year, that's really not much. I like the initiative, I was reading it and thinking "Hum, this is interesting and nice" until I got to the "huh what?" of the 2k$ line.

158 points by jergason 14y ago

again?

For a company who has repeatedly come under fire for hellish work conditions in their warehouses, a tuition reimbursement program seems like a rather pathetic PR nod. What hourly employee of theirs is going to have the time and 3 year commitment to earn this reward? Never mind the fact that most of their employees are temps from external agencies.

WalterSear 14y ago
And all for a measily $1900.
ybother 14y ago
"repeatedly"? Source? I've worked in Amazon warehouses and they are far and above any other workhouse job in terms of both safety, pay and workload required. Granted, I only worked at 2 different Amazon warehouses so my sample small is probably smaller than yours.
- rickmb 14y ago
  It all depends on what your standards are. The working conditions at Amazon warehouses as reported repeatedly by the press would be completely illegal in most Western countries outside the US.
  - tomkarlo 14y ago
    Well, that's meaningless, given that they're in that US. By that logic, the working conditions at most white-collar jobs in the US would also be below your standards, as many EU countries require more vacation, shorter hours (France) and other work rules that don't apply here in the US. You can't expect Amazon or Walmart to adhere to the laws of a country a facility's not located in. If you think the laws aren't strict enough, then change the laws.
    - lancewiggs 14y ago
      Well we should expect that to happen. we should expect companies to have their own standards which are superior to the mandated minimums. Apple are doing this with sourcing. The big mining firms, like BHP Billiton, often apply much higher environmental and safety standards than the local laws. I saw this in a plant in Mozambique, several in South Africa and Australia and one in Colombia. Australia had the toughest laws, but even there the imposed corporate standards were higher than the minimum. It's the right thing to do, but it's also just good business to treat your staff and environment well.
      - politician 14y ago
        No, Apple is doing this because of pressure from their consumer base in the US, and not from an altruistic sense of right and wrong. It's just good business.

patdennis 14y ago

Key information that's missing from the title: up to a maximum of $2,000 per year

Foy 14y ago
I got through the bulk of the page thinking, "Hey, this isn't so bad". But when I got to the $2,000 maximum part I had to stop and re-read it... What's vocational tuition like in the States? Is $2,000/year for 4 years actually going to cover most, or any of it?
- baddox 14y ago
  Four years ago I went to a community college in the rural Midwest, and $2,000 a year would probably just barely cover tuition and books. And that was by far the cheapest school I have ever encountered.
  - ars 14y ago
    Full time or part time? I assume anyone taking advantage of this would be going part time, so the tuition would be lower.
    - baddox 14y ago
      I'm not sure what those terms means, but I was taking around 15 credit hours per semester. I also had a part time job, so I don't know if you would call that "full time" school.
      - influx 14y ago
        Full time in my University was >= 12 credit hours per semester.
        Foy 14y ago
        At my school, "full time" meant 4 or 5 courses per term. "Part time" was 3, 2 or 1.Also there were three terms per year. So if a credit hour is an hour of class per week. Our classes all had 3 hours per week, so 4 classes is 12 credit hours and 5 classes is 15 credit hours. That fits the bill. I think I understand now. I just hadn't been thinking of it in terms of "credit hours".

sriram_sun 14y ago

you couldn't cover tuition in India for $2K/yr unless you go to a Govt. (public) college.

tarice 14y ago

Judging from this news article[1], it seems like there aren't many warehouse workers that 1) work there full-time, 2) have worked for 3 years, and 3) have the free time to pursue a degree. Then again, the money may be targeted towards warehouse managers, who Amazon could see as potential higher-ups in the main organization if they had formal training. [1] http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/02/mac-mcclelland-free-online-shipping-warehouses-labor http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/02/mac-mcclelland-f...

lizthegrey 14y ago

Duplicate article (http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4279905 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4279905), with misleading title this time. This does not apply to the vast majority of warehouse employees. http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4280530 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4280530

jellicle 14y ago

Okay, that's peachy. Here's the flipside: --most people working in Amazon warehouses are employed by temporary staffing firms, not Amazon --most people working in Amazon warehouses don't come anywhere near 3 years of tenure before quitting or being fired --reimbursement is limited to $2,000/year for four years, while $5,000/year is pretty much the minimum direct cost to take such programs --the program is limited to full-time workers, so only those who can take classes while working full-time and mandatory-or-you-get-fired overtime can partake The number of warehouse workers eligible for this is nearly zero. Might even be precisely zero.

allritenow 14y ago
I left Amazon just over a year ago, but have just over two years as a manager across three of their large fulfillment centers. I can offer some perspective: -- Yes, the ratio of temp associates to "blue badge" Amazon associates can be 50/50 at best during off-peak (though trending worse as Amazon expands) and during peak season temps will be 80% of the workforce. And yes, temps get absolutely nothing from Amazon as far as benefits. This is in stark contrast to a company they own - Zappos. -- Very few tier 1 associates made it three years. Very, very few. On my last shift of about 50 associates, I can only think of about 5, and this was one of the older fulfillment centers. -- Maybe it has changed, but there was no option to work part-time. Standard shifts are 10 hours. Mandatory OT can be frequent off-peak and is every week during peak. I had plenty of associates that took college classes during the day (I managed on nights). They did it, but were really dragging ass at night. They got maybe two or three hours of sleep a day. Many just couldn't make their productivity goals and would eventually quit before being fired. This initiative is what I would call a good start, and better than nothing. But as some have mentioned, the ability to move to a part-time schedule would be nice. As would a higher reimbursement amount. But maybe that will come in the future.
- pnathan 14y ago
  "Standard shifts are 10 hours. Mandatory OT can be frequent off-peak and is every week during peak" That's pretty rough. What's the benefit to Amazon of doing 10-hour shifts instead of, say, 8?

donnfelker 14y ago

While some may argue this is not much in regards to tuition, this can get you VERY far in a community college. See this tuition graph here: http://www.maricopa.edu/about/?tuition http://www.maricopa.edu/about/?tuition I went to Maricopa community colleges and I had better instruction there than I had at the big schools. The best teachers I had were at community college. So while some argue its not much, its almost enough to cover your tuition for a year at a community college. If someone has the drive, they'll go do it and take advantage of the program.

xyzzyb 14y ago
I absolutely agree. I attended College of the Albemarle for two years before transferring into UNC-Chapel Hill. The teaching quality at COA was astoundingly much higher at COA than at UNC. At UNC most of my classes, even at the higher level, were taught by graduate students who had clearly received little to no instruction on how to effectively teach. They were there to learn and research, not to teach. At COA my classes were taught by professors with a graduate degree in the field (usually a PhD) who were dedicated to the art of teaching. They were there to teach, not to research. Of course higher education should be dedicated to research and expanding our knowledge, but that doesn't mean that they are good at sharing the basics.
- elangoc 14y ago
  Hmm, never heard of College of Albermarle. I don't disbelieve you -- most survey courses get taught in the 50-300 person seater rooms at UNC-CH. I just don't recall grad students teaching most of my courses, even the survey courses, whether they were in CS or Math (my majors) or the graduation requirements from social sciences, philosophy, etc. I had only one course taught by a grad student -- graphics. Which was your major at UNC-CH?
  - xyzzyb 14y ago
    My degree is in History. I also took a lot of math and computer science courses: all but one of my math courses was taught by a grad student. All but a few of my history courses were taught by grad students. Since I transferred in I never actually took one of the 100+ person courses.

ehao 14y ago

Again? This feels like Amazon PR is spamming HN...

mangler 14y ago

In all fairness, allowing people who are unhappy, in a first warehouse job, or in skilled occupations to train themselves out of their unhappiness is a very novel and extremely favourable idea. This is like saying, it's not you, here's a chance, take your time, we'll help you and then move on when you are ready. I wish every company did that... It is way better than laying you off and even more superior to keeping you in a job you resent and do just because you need to pay the bills...

icco 14y ago

Question: would Amazon hire anyone with just an associates degree?

eli 14y ago

No doubt this is partly in response to articles like this: http://articles.mcall.com/2011-09-18/news/mc-allentown-amazon-complaints-20110917_1_warehouse-workers-heat-stress-brutal-heat http://articles.mcall.com/2011-09-18/news/mc-allentown-amazo... which describe surprisingly poor working conditions in an Amazon warehouse in rural PA. "During summer heat waves, Amazon arranged to have paramedics parked in ambulances outside, ready to treat any workers who dehydrated or suffered other forms of heat stress. Those who couldn't quickly cool off and return to work were sent home or taken out in stretchers and wheelchairs and transported to area hospitals. And new applicants were ready to begin work at any time."

whit537 14y ago

"[...] whether that's at Amazon or in another industry." Because, you know, Amazon is the only player in its industry. Oh wait ...

droithomme 14y ago

This program only covers inexpensive two year community college degrees, and only for a small number of subjects. The subject limitation I can understand, it's not unreasonable for the employer to lock out degrees that they feel might not directly benefit the company. But the two year degree restriction, which locks out all serious degrees and universities, has no justification other than being incredibly cheap on reimbursements. It would be better to have nothing at all since community college tuition isn't that expensive to begin with. If I was there I'd interpret this limitation as more of an insult than anything, and I have no doubt that many there will see it the same way once they look into the details.

HeyLaughingBoy 14y ago
Explain how it could possibly be better to have no program at all?
- Klinky 14y ago
  By creating a program such as this it deflects attention from the working conditions of Amazon's employees while actually doing very little to benefit them.
  - HeyLaughingBoy 14y ago
    I understand that you may think that $2k/year is very little, but to many people it's a small fortune. Anyway, why do you think it's necessary to deflect attention from their working conditions? Warehouses aren't the most comfortable working environments in any case, that should not be surprising. Not everything can be a nice air conditioned office.
    - Klinky 14y ago
      I agree that $2,000 is a decent chunk of change, but as has been pointed out by others the hoops to jump through to get the $2,000 excludes a huge quantity of Amazon's workforce. So again, Amazon gets good PR, while conditions and compensation for much of their workforce stays the same.

hosh 14y ago

Sounds like Amazon is telegraphing its intentions for increasing automation in warehouses, a la Zappos. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fdd6sQ8Cbe0 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fdd6sQ8Cbe0

lsc 14y ago

"Unlike traditional tuition reimbursement programs, we exclusively fund education only in areas that are well-paying and in high demand according to sources like the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics, and we fund those areas regardless of whether those skills are relevant to a career at Amazon. In addition, the Amazon Career Choice Program will pay tuition and fees in advance rather than reimbursement after the completion of the course." That is /really interesting/ I mean, why? from an employer's perspective, it seems like you'd keep your low-skilled employees longer if you helped them pursue their dream of, you know, something unemployable. (I mean, assuming they are going to learn something that doesn't help amazon, amazon keeps people longer if they learn something that isn't in demand.)

rabidsnail 14y ago

This, combined with the recent Kiva Systems acquisition, makes me suspect a layoff is on the horizon.

orbitingpluto 14y ago

I just took a peak on glassdoor.com. Average salary for a "Amazon.com Warehouse Associate Salary": $24,756 With 10 hour days (as mentioned in the comments) that works out to be... disgusting.

keeptrying 14y ago

A friend of mine commented that this is just a way to minimize the negative impact for when Amazon substitutes employees with Kiva robots.

AYBABTME 14y ago

I find it's kinda cheap. 2000$ per year... looks more like recruitment marketing without too much commitment, than an actual initiative for the well-beings of the employees. I like to think "do things right, or don't do them". In that case, I'd prefer if Amazon would go all the way and give maybe, 5..8k$, or give nothing at all. 2k$ a year, that's really not much. I like the initiative, I was reading it and thinking "Hum, this is interesting and nice" until I got to the "huh what?" of the 2k$ line.