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The tone in this article is unbelievable. >The case raises questions over whether Craigslist is stifling innovation or simply protecting its data There is no

The tone in this article is unbelievable. >The case raises questions over whether Craigslist is stifling innovation or simply protecting its data There is no question. Craigslist isn't stopping Padmapper from being built, its stopping Padmapper from using Craigslist data. The continuous attempts to reframe Craigslist's actions as an attempt to stifle innovation seem almost surreal. I just can't understand how a community of professionals could support Padmapper in this.

praxulus 14y ago
Because we're also a community of apartment seekers, and Padmapper makes Craigslist's data many times more useful. It's fine if Craigslist wants us to use their mapping service, but it doesn't exist yet. It's a purely selfish argument, but shutting down Padmapper does nothing but make our lives more difficult.
- jetti 14y ago
  That is hardly shutting down Padmapper. It is just a roadblock and they would have to find another source of data. It has been clear for many years that Craigslist doesn't want their site scraped, so building a business that is so dependent that it would close if they lost that source the business would be ruined is extremely short sighted. Edit: finished my thought that I left out mid-sentence.
  - praxulus 14y ago
    The vast majority of useful data (for the areas that I have looked for apartments, at least) comes from Craigslist. When Padmapper can't use that data, I can't use Padmapper. I'm not talking about the legal, or even ethical aspects of the situation, just the practical ones.
  - moron 14y ago
    No, it is effectively shutting down Padmapper. Apartment listings are on Craigslist. As I have said elsewhere, I think Craigslist are within their rights here, but the situation still sucks. People want to browse apartment listings on a map, and Craigslist won't let us.
    - DanBC 14y ago
      It seems that Craigslist sucks for people trying to find a property. Does it suck for people on the other end - people with a property that they'd like to rent to others? Why hasn't some other solution come onto the market to fix the problems of craigslist?
      - praxulus 14y ago
        Padmapper was that solution. Are you asking why nobody has made a website that competes directly with Craiglist, but with a better interface? Padmapper allows you to post listing directly, but it's very difficult to get buyers or sellers to bother with a different marketplace when all the other buyers and sellers are already using Craigslist. You can't beat Craigslist on price, and many non-technical people are already comfortable with the existing system. Convincing them to switch to a different marketplace with fewer potential customers and a new interface is very difficult, no matter how great your features are.
      - usaar333 14y ago
        Nope, doesn't suck for sellers, at least in seller's markets (SF), they don't have to do anything other than list, and renters will flood in. Due to various factors (demographics, etc.), sellers also tend to be not the most tech savvy people. I can't believe that it is not standard procedure to post a video walk-through these days. A lot of listings lack even a photo.
      - jacoblyles 14y ago
        >"Why hasn't some other solution come onto the market to fix the problems of craigslist?" Monopoly power.
jetti 14y ago
I agree! On top of that, the ability to free-ride off of other's data without permission could be seen as an attempt to stiffle innovation as well. Why should I take the time to build something when (a) others can come along and use my data for free and take away my market share or (b) I can just wait a year and scrape the data off of somebody else and not do as much work. It seems about time Craigslist re-evaluates creating an API. They have such vast amount of local data that others could use that they could easily charge for use and make some money there.
- flinty 14y ago
  why isn't craigslist doing that then instead of suing someone who found a way to attract users and media attention?
  - danielweber 14y ago
    They attracted media attention? Well, why didn't you say so in the first place?
baddox 14y ago
I interpret this different. I certainly think that Craigslist is stifling innovation (perhaps purposefully, perhaps not), but simply stifling innovation is not illegal.
IanDrake 14y ago
> its stopping Padmapper from using Craigslist data Is it Craigslist's data? Does Craigslist own the posts that caused women to be murdered and stolen property to be sold? If they own that data, then they must be culpable (to some degree) for these bad acts. If they own it, they are now more than just a service provider (IMO) and can no longer be protected by the DCA. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communications_Decency_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communications_Decency_Act
- ig1 14y ago
  No. I could write something illegal (libelous, inciting a crime, etc) and assign copyright to you without your consent.
  - IanDrake 14y ago
    Ok, but then I wouldn't later claim ownership of it as Craigslist has (implying they have consented).
    - rprasad 14y ago
      Craigslit does not claim ownership. Craiglist claims it has a license. They are completely different things. Craiglist is enforcing its license to the post. Ownership of the post itself is, and always has been, with the original poster.
- sliverstorm 14y ago
  As I see it, they don't own the information, they own the database. For example, they do not own the fact that you are selling a toothbrush. The do own the records on their servers which catalog the fact that you are selling a toothbrush. Why? Because they are the ones who went to the trouble of gathering and storing those records. This is somewhat akin to recording a verbal note from a customer in a book, and storing that book in a giant library. Sure, the user owns the information, but that doesn't mean you are obligated to let every Tom, Dick, and Harry come in and use your library how they see fit- it's your library, even though you do not hold the copyright to all the information stored there.
icebraining 14y ago
It's not Craigslist data, it's the users'. They just have a license. /pedant
- waterlesscloud 14y ago
  Great. Have the users provided a license to PadMapper? Where is this license agreement? How is it made?
  - jongraehl 14y ago
    Of course you're correct, but surely (under the active hypothetical of CL having a license to the users' data) it would fall to the users to sue PadMapper (which they almost surely won't, because they're happy having more interest in their rental).
  - invisible 14y ago
    Google also indexes this data. Craigslist obviously doesn't own this data as they have DMCA practices in place. They can't claim DMCA and also say that the data is their data.
    - dangrossman 14y ago
      Read Craigslist's TOS. The copyright remains with the listing author, but they sign over rights to enforce that copyright to Craigslist.
      - stcredzero 14y ago
        That is a power that, in the past, Craigslist has used for good. In this case, it's a power being used just for the benefit of Craigslist to protect its network effect incumbency, to the detriment of users.
      - metageek 14y ago
        Doesn't that run afoul of the same problem as Righthaven? There is no bare "right to sue" that can be transferred without transferring the copyright.
adestefan 14y ago
I'm also pretty confident that if it was the opposite (PadMapper suing Craigslist for using PadMapper data), then most people would be cheering on PadMapper.
- dredmorbius 14y ago
  Craigslist makes use of both Google Maps and Yahoo Mapquest to present locations of individual properties through links on the CL site. Note that these are free links, not paid-for API calls. Who's free-riding whom?
  - rprasad 14y ago
    Craiglist provides links to Google and MQ, which is the basis of how the Internet and WWW works. Craiglist supplies the actual address data. It would be different if Craiglist embedded the maps from GM or MQ, but in such case CL would probably do so with permission from those companies (possibly even--gasp--paying for the right to embed maps).
    - dredmorbius 14y ago
      The point I was making is that CL are increasing the utility of their service by using Google/Yahoo to provide specific maps of property locations. The distinction is that the relevant data curation (property locations) is done by CL, not the mapping providers. I also noted that API usage would have been paid (or at least licensed), so in that sense, CL are (legitimately) freeloading on Google and Yahoo. While the argument could be made that CL are sending traffic to these sites, that same argument would apply to Padmapper.
joering2 14y ago
Craiglist is being known for not "innovating", at least when it comes to their platform, design etc. Heck, Craig himself said he tries to implement changes as little and as rarely as possible, because he himself does not truly know what makes Craiglist to constantly "tick" year after year. Im sure that's why their try this lowball trick to defend themselves and show it to judge "hey we want to innovate, and Craiglist does not want to". But sure its not their business what CL does...
ataggart 14y ago
The posts on CL are no more "Craigslist data" than videos on YouTube are "Google data". The data is submitted by the users for the express purpose of being seen by other people. Does anyone seriously argue that users listing flats on CL do not want their listing found by other avenues? It is clear that Padmapper is providing a service beneficial to both suppliers and consumers of rental properties, and CL is using the police power of the state to prevent that benefit. Why they're doing this is still a mystery to me.
- res0nat0r 14y ago
  The users of CL never agreed to let you copy their postings to whatever website you feel like, also it is against their TOS to do so: Any copying, aggregation, display, distribution, performance or derivative use of craigslist or any content posted on craigslist whether done directly or through intermediaries (including but not limited to by means of spiders, robots, crawlers, scrapers, framing, iframes or RSS feeds) is prohibited. As a limited exception, general purpose Internet search engines and noncommercial public archives will be entitled to access craigslist without individual written agreements executed with CL that specifically authorize an exception to this prohibition if, in all cases and individual instances: (a) they provide a direct hyperlink to the relevant craigslist website, service, forum or content; (b) they access craigslist from a stable IP address using an easily identifiable agent; and (c) they comply with CL's robots.txt file; provided however, that CL may terminate this limited exception as to any search engine or public archive (or any person or entity relying on this provision to access craigslist without their own written agreement executed with CL), at any time and in its sole discretion, upon written notice, including, without limitation, by email notice.
  - scotty79 14y ago
    No they don't. They just have to check the stupid checbox that doesn't do anything because otherwise they can't post advertisment they wrote. I'd say cheking this checkbox is coerced. Also you may check it witout reading what's written next to it.
    - 14y ago
slantyyz 14y ago
Stifling or not stifling, it's always a huge risk to build your business around someone else's technology, especially one that has a track record of not cooperating with third parties.
kaonashi 14y ago
On a purely philosophical level, the data 'belongs' to the people posting it.
- dredmorbius 14y ago
  Actually, that's on a legal copyright data -- the expression of the information belongs to its author. The facts themselves aren't subject to copyright. Access through the CL site is governed by various computer use statutes. Though aggregation-via-proxy as PM are doing through Google cache raises some interesting issues.
wwweston 14y ago
> I just can't understand how a community of professionals could support Padmapper in this. Well, for one thing: different ideas about what constitutes fair game for property/control claims. Not everything can be copyrighted or patented, and specifically, it's really not clear that a rental/for sale/wanted listing is actually a copyrightable work. If that weren't enough, though, there's also not really a clear difference between what Padmapper does and a search engine -- it doesn't "steal" listings and put them wholesale on their site without attribution, it provides a geographic search that yields a limited digest and then points users to the original source.

praxulus 14y ago

Because we're also a community of apartment seekers, and Padmapper makes Craigslist's data many times more useful. It's fine if Craigslist wants us to use their mapping service, but it doesn't exist yet. It's a purely selfish argument, but shutting down Padmapper does nothing but make our lives more difficult.

jetti 14y ago
That is hardly shutting down Padmapper. It is just a roadblock and they would have to find another source of data. It has been clear for many years that Craigslist doesn't want their site scraped, so building a business that is so dependent that it would close if they lost that source the business would be ruined is extremely short sighted. Edit: finished my thought that I left out mid-sentence.
- praxulus 14y ago
  The vast majority of useful data (for the areas that I have looked for apartments, at least) comes from Craigslist. When Padmapper can't use that data, I can't use Padmapper. I'm not talking about the legal, or even ethical aspects of the situation, just the practical ones.
- moron 14y ago
  No, it is effectively shutting down Padmapper. Apartment listings are on Craigslist. As I have said elsewhere, I think Craigslist are within their rights here, but the situation still sucks. People want to browse apartment listings on a map, and Craigslist won't let us.
  - DanBC 14y ago
    It seems that Craigslist sucks for people trying to find a property. Does it suck for people on the other end - people with a property that they'd like to rent to others? Why hasn't some other solution come onto the market to fix the problems of craigslist?
    - praxulus 14y ago
      Padmapper was that solution. Are you asking why nobody has made a website that competes directly with Craiglist, but with a better interface? Padmapper allows you to post listing directly, but it's very difficult to get buyers or sellers to bother with a different marketplace when all the other buyers and sellers are already using Craigslist. You can't beat Craigslist on price, and many non-technical people are already comfortable with the existing system. Convincing them to switch to a different marketplace with fewer potential customers and a new interface is very difficult, no matter how great your features are.
    - usaar333 14y ago
      Nope, doesn't suck for sellers, at least in seller's markets (SF), they don't have to do anything other than list, and renters will flood in. Due to various factors (demographics, etc.), sellers also tend to be not the most tech savvy people. I can't believe that it is not standard procedure to post a video walk-through these days. A lot of listings lack even a photo.
    - jacoblyles 14y ago
      >"Why hasn't some other solution come onto the market to fix the problems of craigslist?" Monopoly power.

jetti 14y ago

I agree! On top of that, the ability to free-ride off of other's data without permission could be seen as an attempt to stiffle innovation as well. Why should I take the time to build something when (a) others can come along and use my data for free and take away my market share or (b) I can just wait a year and scrape the data off of somebody else and not do as much work. It seems about time Craigslist re-evaluates creating an API. They have such vast amount of local data that others could use that they could easily charge for use and make some money there.

flinty 14y ago
why isn't craigslist doing that then instead of suing someone who found a way to attract users and media attention?
- danielweber 14y ago
  They attracted media attention? Well, why didn't you say so in the first place?

baddox 14y ago

I interpret this different. I certainly think that Craigslist is stifling innovation (perhaps purposefully, perhaps not), but simply stifling innovation is not illegal.

IanDrake 14y ago

> its stopping Padmapper from using Craigslist data Is it Craigslist's data? Does Craigslist own the posts that caused women to be murdered and stolen property to be sold? If they own that data, then they must be culpable (to some degree) for these bad acts. If they own it, they are now more than just a service provider (IMO) and can no longer be protected by the DCA. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communications_Decency_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communications_Decency_Act

ig1 14y ago
No. I could write something illegal (libelous, inciting a crime, etc) and assign copyright to you without your consent.
- IanDrake 14y ago
  Ok, but then I wouldn't later claim ownership of it as Craigslist has (implying they have consented).
  - rprasad 14y ago
    Craigslit does not claim ownership. Craiglist claims it has a license. They are completely different things. Craiglist is enforcing its license to the post. Ownership of the post itself is, and always has been, with the original poster.
sliverstorm 14y ago
As I see it, they don't own the information, they own the database. For example, they do not own the fact that you are selling a toothbrush. The do own the records on their servers which catalog the fact that you are selling a toothbrush. Why? Because they are the ones who went to the trouble of gathering and storing those records. This is somewhat akin to recording a verbal note from a customer in a book, and storing that book in a giant library. Sure, the user owns the information, but that doesn't mean you are obligated to let every Tom, Dick, and Harry come in and use your library how they see fit- it's your library, even though you do not hold the copyright to all the information stored there.

icebraining 14y ago

It's not Craigslist data, it's the users'. They just have a license. /pedant

waterlesscloud 14y ago
Great. Have the users provided a license to PadMapper? Where is this license agreement? How is it made?
- jongraehl 14y ago
  Of course you're correct, but surely (under the active hypothetical of CL having a license to the users' data) it would fall to the users to sue PadMapper (which they almost surely won't, because they're happy having more interest in their rental).
- invisible 14y ago
  Google also indexes this data. Craigslist obviously doesn't own this data as they have DMCA practices in place. They can't claim DMCA and also say that the data is their data.
  - dangrossman 14y ago
    Read Craigslist's TOS. The copyright remains with the listing author, but they sign over rights to enforce that copyright to Craigslist.
    - stcredzero 14y ago
      That is a power that, in the past, Craigslist has used for good. In this case, it's a power being used just for the benefit of Craigslist to protect its network effect incumbency, to the detriment of users.
    - metageek 14y ago
      Doesn't that run afoul of the same problem as Righthaven? There is no bare "right to sue" that can be transferred without transferring the copyright.

adestefan 14y ago

I'm also pretty confident that if it was the opposite (PadMapper suing Craigslist for using PadMapper data), then most people would be cheering on PadMapper.

dredmorbius 14y ago
Craigslist makes use of both Google Maps and Yahoo Mapquest to present locations of individual properties through links on the CL site. Note that these are free links, not paid-for API calls. Who's free-riding whom?
- rprasad 14y ago
  Craiglist provides links to Google and MQ, which is the basis of how the Internet and WWW works. Craiglist supplies the actual address data. It would be different if Craiglist embedded the maps from GM or MQ, but in such case CL would probably do so with permission from those companies (possibly even--gasp--paying for the right to embed maps).
  - dredmorbius 14y ago
    The point I was making is that CL are increasing the utility of their service by using Google/Yahoo to provide specific maps of property locations. The distinction is that the relevant data curation (property locations) is done by CL, not the mapping providers. I also noted that API usage would have been paid (or at least licensed), so in that sense, CL are (legitimately) freeloading on Google and Yahoo. While the argument could be made that CL are sending traffic to these sites, that same argument would apply to Padmapper.

joering2 14y ago

Craiglist is being known for not "innovating", at least when it comes to their platform, design etc. Heck, Craig himself said he tries to implement changes as little and as rarely as possible, because he himself does not truly know what makes Craiglist to constantly "tick" year after year. Im sure that's why their try this lowball trick to defend themselves and show it to judge "hey we want to innovate, and Craiglist does not want to". But sure its not their business what CL does...

ataggart 14y ago

The posts on CL are no more "Craigslist data" than videos on YouTube are "Google data". The data is submitted by the users for the express purpose of being seen by other people. Does anyone seriously argue that users listing flats on CL do not want their listing found by other avenues? It is clear that Padmapper is providing a service beneficial to both suppliers and consumers of rental properties, and CL is using the police power of the state to prevent that benefit. Why they're doing this is still a mystery to me.

res0nat0r 14y ago
The users of CL never agreed to let you copy their postings to whatever website you feel like, also it is against their TOS to do so: Any copying, aggregation, display, distribution, performance or derivative use of craigslist or any content posted on craigslist whether done directly or through intermediaries (including but not limited to by means of spiders, robots, crawlers, scrapers, framing, iframes or RSS feeds) is prohibited. As a limited exception, general purpose Internet search engines and noncommercial public archives will be entitled to access craigslist without individual written agreements executed with CL that specifically authorize an exception to this prohibition if, in all cases and individual instances: (a) they provide a direct hyperlink to the relevant craigslist website, service, forum or content; (b) they access craigslist from a stable IP address using an easily identifiable agent; and (c) they comply with CL's robots.txt file; provided however, that CL may terminate this limited exception as to any search engine or public archive (or any person or entity relying on this provision to access craigslist without their own written agreement executed with CL), at any time and in its sole discretion, upon written notice, including, without limitation, by email notice.
- scotty79 14y ago
  No they don't. They just have to check the stupid checbox that doesn't do anything because otherwise they can't post advertisment they wrote. I'd say cheking this checkbox is coerced. Also you may check it witout reading what's written next to it.
  - 14y ago

slantyyz 14y ago

Stifling or not stifling, it's always a huge risk to build your business around someone else's technology, especially one that has a track record of not cooperating with third parties.

kaonashi 14y ago

On a purely philosophical level, the data 'belongs' to the people posting it.

dredmorbius 14y ago
Actually, that's on a legal copyright data -- the expression of the information belongs to its author. The facts themselves aren't subject to copyright. Access through the CL site is governed by various computer use statutes. Though aggregation-via-proxy as PM are doing through Google cache raises some interesting issues.

wwweston 14y ago

> I just can't understand how a community of professionals could support Padmapper in this. Well, for one thing: different ideas about what constitutes fair game for property/control claims. Not everything can be copyrighted or patented, and specifically, it's really not clear that a rental/for sale/wanted listing is actually a copyrightable work. If that weren't enough, though, there's also not really a clear difference between what Padmapper does and a search engine -- it doesn't "steal" listings and put them wholesale on their site without attribution, it provides a geographic search that yields a limited digest and then points users to the original source.