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Craigslist Suing Padmapper

• picklefish 14y ago
  Why is craigslist going after people who bring them traffic? Is it because they don't bring in much money themselves so they have to sell licenses? I've never really thought about craigslists business model. I assume it's almost entirely ad based / premium placement of your ad on their site based.
  • vailripper 14y ago
    Job listings in select cities cost money, I believe that's their only source of income.
  • avolcano 14y ago
    From a Wired article, circa 2009 (so this may be out of date): "Craigslist is not only gigantic in scale and totally resistant to business cooperation, it is also mostly free. The only things that cost money to post on the site are job ads in some cities ($25 to $75), apartment listings by brokers in New York ($10), and—in a special case born of recent legal trouble—advertisements in categories commonly used by prostitutes, because authorities encourage vendors to maintain a record that would aid investigators. There is no banner advertising. They won't let you join them, and at this price you can't beat them either." http://www.wired.com/entertainment/theweb/magazine/17-09/ff_craigslist http://www.wired.com/entertainment/theweb/magazine/17-09/ff_... Usually, when companies get mad about scraping, it's because it's either bypassing the ads that make them money, or in rare cases bypassing a premium API. Here, PadMapper is doing neither. In fact, if Craiglist is so committed to not updating their ugly website, why don't they just license out a public API, killing two birds (new monetization strategy and having a better interface for free) with one stone?
    • diminoten 14y ago
      I'm guessing that PadMapper said no to paying for API access, for some reason. Though to be honest that makes no sense, because that's exactly what they're getting from the third party site, and they're paying for that...
      • mikegirouard 14y ago
        AFAIK, there is only a license available for mobile apps. Not websites.
    • dkroy 14y ago
      Yeah, it doesn't seem like a smart business decision to me. It would just make sense to pursue this new revenue stream, and license out an API. This response just seems like more of an emotional response than a business strategy. Edit: Not sure why this comment is getting down-voted, but if I offended some one that was not my intention.
    • gamble 14y ago
      The first step to beating Craigslist at apartment listings is to get everyone to use a different front-end. (ie. Padmapper) Then you offer a way to create listings entirely within that front-end and bypass Craigslist entirely. CL becomes little more than a backend database, and eventually goes out of business as no one needs to use it anymore.
  • rprasad 14y ago
    Craiglist doesn't get traffic from PadMapper. PadMapper gets nearly all of its traffic from Craiglist. Craiglist can charge for mobile licenses because people want the traffic that Craiglist can bring them.
    • philfreo 14y ago
      No, it's the other way around. I view real Craigslist pages but use Padmapper to get me there.
    • Goronmon 14y ago
      PadMapper gets no traffic from Craigslist. Craiglist gets traffic from PadMapper. PadMapper is basically a pointer to a listing on Craigslist (when Craigslist listings are the reference), where you can search the pointers with filtering that you can't on Craigslist. In order to get to PadMapper, you have to visit the site directly.
  • hapless 14y ago
    The same reason facebook bought instagram: craigslist doesn't want any other web site's userbase to become the kernel for a replacement listing service. Once you have a web site that attracts buyers, you can replace craigslist data with your own listing service and stop paying for their API. They clearly don't fear this kind of competition in the mobile space, hence offering licenses for mobile-only API use.
• runako 14y ago
  A key part of building a business around stealing IP is getting acquired by a big firm that can fight legal battles. YouTube executed well on this plan; I'm curious how Padmapper planned for this obvious development.
  • cwp 14y ago
    Padmapper doesn't steal IP.
    • runako 14y ago
      s/stealing IP/behaving in a manner that may be or may not be stealing IP but probably looks enough like stealing IP to a judge to pass legal muster and require an expensive legal defense/g The point is that simply defending against the lawsuit could kill Padmapper. Lots of time, money, and energy go into lawsuits. Conveniently, those are three things startups don't typically have in excess. The outcome doesn't matter for Padmapper if Padmapper dies during the defense.
    • chimi 14y ago
      It's pretty clear that Padmapper is making use of the craigslist posts without the rights to do so, which is defined by Merriam-Webster as "stealing". STEALING transitive verb 1a : to take or appropriate without right or leave and with intent to keep or make use of wrongfully http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/stealing http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/stealing If you're going to downvote me, that's fine, but if you do, please show how copyright infringement does not fit within the definition of stealing. I'd like to settle this semantic debate once and for all.
      • gcb 14y ago
        nice. you just proved that they are stealing by stealing from Merriam-Webster! or are you going to say it's fair use? i for one advertised places in craigslist and search for places on padmapper. I loved that my listing showed up for free and without me moving a finger on padmapper, and i found it much bette to find a place using padmapper's interface. now, posting on craigslist has lost value for me. as my post will not be on that nice interface for people to find. So, as far as you may prove they are stealing craigslist data, they sure as hell are not 'stealing' my data that i post at craigslist. So, i don't think it fits the last word of your stolen definition "make use of wrongfully".
• astrodust 14y ago
  When you can't beat them, sue them into the ground. Craigslist is one of the poorest user experiences around and succeeds only because people insist on using it. The alternatives somehow manage to be even more spectacularly useless by over-designing their apps and cluttering them up with junk. Padmapper is one of the few that does what they're supposed to do, and it's not even an optimal implementation of this sort of thing.
  • flatline3 14y ago
    When you can't beat them, steal their work product. Padmapper is (indirectly) screen-scraping Craigslist's data in an attempt to unseat Craigslist.
    • diminoten 14y ago
      > in an attempt to unseat Craigslist. Unseat Craigslist as the undisputed champion of what, exactly? Cartographical apartment hunting?
      • gfosco 14y ago
        They are the champion of free listings, and built a huge user base around their dead simple platform.
        • diminoten 14y ago
          No doubt about that, I just don't know if padmapper is really trying to be the next Craigslist. Sure, you can list your pad, but you can't buy a bike or get a job (hand or otherwise) on padmapper, afaik.
        • astrodust 14y ago
          I'd describe them more as the tyrant of free listings.
    • astrodust 14y ago
      If these were articles written by professional writers, you might have a case. Instead these are posts written by many different individuals trying to advertise their properties. Craigslist didn't write a single one of those posts. They try and assert control over this content through their terms of service: "You automatically grant and assign to CL, and you represent and warrant that you have the right to grant and assign to CL, a perpetual, irrevocable, unlimited, fully paid, fully sub-licensable (through multiple tiers), worldwide license to copy, perform, display, distribute, prepare derivative works from (including, without limitation, incorporating into other works) and otherwise use any content that you post. You also expressly grant and assign to CL all rights and causes of action to prohibit and enforce against any unauthorized copying, performance, display, distribution, use or exploitation of, or creation of derivative works from, any content that you post (including but not limited to any unauthorized downloading, extraction, harvesting, collection or aggregation of content that you post)." The last part of that may not be enforceable. They're asserting that they are singularly responsible for "authorizing" reproduction despite not having copyright for the material in question.
• gfosco 14y ago
  Who didn't see this coming? I almost feel bad for Padmapper, but not really, because they should have known better.
  • citricsquid 14y ago
    If anyone is the party we should feel bad for in this case it's 3Taps. They seemed to be flying under the radar until Padmapper started using them.
    • debacle 14y ago
      They're running a service called 'craiggers' that scrapes Craigslist listings and sells an API. It's clear trademark infringement. Why would we feel bad for them?
      • antidaily 14y ago
        Maybe they had a rough childhood.
      • usaar333 14y ago
        Alright, perhaps one can argue the name is too close. But craiggers provides a very valuable service, namely showing pictures of items as you search. It made furniture searching so much easier. I have zero sympathy for craigslist. They didn't get into their position through "years of hard work". They won the lottery (someone had to win it). They have done zero innovation (other than maybe anti-spam) for years and prevent others from innovating on top. Society wins if they are forced to open their data.
    • brador 14y ago
      "Flying under the radar hoping we don't get caught and sued for something we know is wrong" should not be a part of any reasonable business plan.
      • freehunter 14y ago
        But many startups do not have reasonable business plans. They have crazy business plans that everyone knows will fail, except sometimes they don't. Many startups have begun knowing they were going to be sued, knowing they were going to have legal and publicity problems. That's the nature of the disruptive business that everyone wants to be in these days.
• dave1619 14y ago
  Does anybody know if Craigslist is cracking down on all the Craigslist iPhone apps?
  • runako 14y ago
    I'm guessing they're not cracking down on the ones that opted to contractually license the CL data.
  • soperj 14y ago
    they won't be if they've paid to use the craigslist mobile api.
  • zcvosdfdgj 14y ago
    They have an api for mobile apps. If you haven't purchased it, doesn't that tell you all you need to know?
• res0nat0r 14y ago
  Here's a nugget from the article which I didn't hear anything about in the previous Padmapper postings and chat here on HN: "The company said it offered a license that would have allowed PadMapper to use its data on mobile applications but that the competitor did not accept the terms."
  • pavel_lishin 14y ago
    How many people use PadMapper on a mobile device, vs. the desktop site?
    • pchristensen 14y ago
      Their iPad app is one of my guilty pleasures. (ditto HotPads and Redfin)
  • huckleberries21 14y ago
    It was in PadMapper's original blog post about the C&D letter
  • mikegirouard 14y ago
    That caught me as soon as I read it too. I didn't recall that part mentioned earlier. From the original: > They allow mobile apps to display their listings if you buy a license from them, but not websites.
  • freehunter 14y ago
    I wonder what would happen if their mobile app was simply a browser shell pointing to a mobile-optimized website. That mobile-optimized website could be accessible from a desktop, though unadvertised.
  • zem 14y ago
    that is actually the point at which i lost sympathy for craigslist. they can license the data or not, but if they do they should not get to demand where and how it is used
  • deleted 14y ago
• cwp 14y ago
  Well, I can't say this was a surprise, but it is disappointing. I hope Padmapper has the wherewithal to fight the suit. Bon courage, Eric.
• Killswitch 14y ago
  I'm very interested in the outcome of this as I am building a service similar to Padmapper in the sense that it uses data from other sources to make a better user experience for people, and I'd love to include Craigslist (Would be a big supplier of data for my users), but I don't want to deal with these types of things so I have been leaving it out.
  • jcurbo 14y ago
    I think the key thing here is that you have to talk to your data sources. You have to use their data source the way they want you to, or come to some sort of agreement (licensing or somesuch), else you are moving into the same legal territory Padmapper was in and risk getting sued.
  • slig 14y ago
    Do as they did: build it and wait until the C&D. Get a massive amount of free PR and hopefully you can go from there.
• moron 14y ago
  The suit is understandable, but I wish craigslist would get over themselves already and allow users to look at listings on a map. That's all anyone really wants here, and this is getting a bit ridiculous.
• phene 14y ago
  After spending 2 weeks searching Craigslist posting for a new rental in SF, I'm convinced that Padmapper gains nothing by using their data. Most listings appear to be scams.
• blhack 14y ago
  Previous discussion: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4218714 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4218714 Eric, everybody saw this coming.
  • earl 14y ago
    I also learned Eric is a smarmy liar who dresses up what's good for him (and his pocketbook) in ludicrous claims that he's doing it for me, and the good of the people! And because he doesn't want you to waste your time, he needs to run this service that exists to make him money. His post was transparent self serving horseshit.
• patdennis 14y ago
  My logical brain says that suing Padmapper is perfectly reasonable. My emotional brain is crying at the idea of using raw Craigslist ads to find an apartment the next time I move to a new city. I move to a new city every year, usually on short notice, and I often go into the process of apartment hunting with no knowledge of local neighborhoods, the public transportation system, or general geography. Without Padmapper, the process would be unbearable.
  • Goronmon 14y ago
    Yeah, I'm in a similar position. Every time I have to use Craigslist I come much closer to hating the team behind it. I mean, I know it's probably not rational, but I think they are being shitty people for locking up so much useful data behind a site that is designed to be miserable to use. It's pretty evil when you get down to it. It's obvious they don't care about users.
    • vigrant 14y ago
      What's stopping someone from making a craiglist like website with an awesome UI?
      • lobotryas 14y ago
        The challenge in building a brand and an audience that Craigslist has assembled. If you build it, doesn't automatically mean that they will come.
      • phpnode 14y ago
        network effects
      • Goronmon 14y ago
        It's hard to compete with a site that is both free and "everyone" uses already. Both of those are very strong barriers to entry.
        • 14y ago
• _sentient 14y ago
  Just because you don't like the interface, does not give you license to steal their data. I think HN is fairly ugly, but that doesn't mean I have a right to scrape the site in order to reproduce a slightly better looking, for-profit clone. At least not without PG's express permission. Yahoo search would be a hell of a lot better if they could just scrape results from Google, but thankfully they lack the misguided sense of entitlement that Padmapper seems to suffer from.
  • rprasad 14y ago
    You actually do under the HN terms of use, which are permissive in the licenses they grant regarding HN posts. For example, see HN Magazine and various other HN-based sites and services. But as you note, the important thing here is the "license." Craigslist offers paid licenses to app develoeprs, which PadMapper chose not to pay for.
    • juiceandjuice 14y ago
      The license doesn't cover websites, only mobile applications.
• debacle 14y ago
  > The lawsuit raises questions about who should be able to use the vast amount of user-created data hosted on a site like Craigslist. No, it really doesn't. This isn't going to be a long, exciting case challenging the underpinnings of copyright law and server terms of services. Padmapper isn't that company.
  • mootothemax 14y ago
    Agreed - there have been an awful lot of armchair lawyers asserting that there's more to this case than there really is.
    • debacle 14y ago
      There really is a lot to this case and a lot of precedent to be set, I wont deny that, but PadMapper doesn't have the resources to fight this battle.
  • rdl 14y ago
    3taps, however, is.
• mootothemax 14y ago
  I can't say that I'm that surprised; Padmapper wrote a whole blog post about how they were adding Craigslist support back to their site after being sent a C&D by Craigslist. It's a shame for the guy behind Padmapper, but hopefully there'll be a lesson learnt about knowing which fights are worth picking versus knowing when to move on. Somehow Google managed to overcome Yahoo and Altavista without scraping their data. And look at something like GumTree in the UK, which has always been miles ahead of Craigslist - no first mover advantage taken up there. Plus, GumTree's design has been equally woeful over the years.
  • gcb 14y ago
    uh, didn't he wrote that to say how he was complying with the C&D order and ceasing any automated access to craigslist servers? padmapper is now merely the user of a 3rd party service that provides craigslist data... it's like coca cola suing me because i bought a can at 7-11 and 7-11 failed to pay the coke distributor.
  • jaems33 14y ago
    Speaking of the UK, Foxtons also does a great job providing two interfaces for searching properties (list vs. map view) as well as organizing photos by room with specified dimensions. I wish their design was pretty much applied to Craiglist for property finding in the U.S.
• Maascamp 14y ago
  The tone in this article is unbelievable. >The case raises questions over whether Craigslist is stifling innovation or simply protecting its data There is no question. Craigslist isn't stopping Padmapper from being built, its stopping Padmapper from using Craigslist data. The continuous attempts to reframe Craigslist's actions as an attempt to stifle innovation seem almost surreal. I just can't understand how a community of professionals could support Padmapper in this.
  • praxulus 14y ago
    Because we're also a community of apartment seekers, and Padmapper makes Craigslist's data many times more useful. It's fine if Craigslist wants us to use their mapping service, but it doesn't exist yet. It's a purely selfish argument, but shutting down Padmapper does nothing but make our lives more difficult.
    • jetti 14y ago
      That is hardly shutting down Padmapper. It is just a roadblock and they would have to find another source of data. It has been clear for many years that Craigslist doesn't want their site scraped, so building a business that is so dependent that it would close if they lost that source the business would be ruined is extremely short sighted. Edit: finished my thought that I left out mid-sentence.
      • praxulus 14y ago
        The vast majority of useful data (for the areas that I have looked for apartments, at least) comes from Craigslist. When Padmapper can't use that data, I can't use Padmapper. I'm not talking about the legal, or even ethical aspects of the situation, just the practical ones.
      • moron 14y ago
        No, it is effectively shutting down Padmapper. Apartment listings are on Craigslist. As I have said elsewhere, I think Craigslist are within their rights here, but the situation still sucks. People want to browse apartment listings on a map, and Craigslist won't let us.
• jonny_eh 14y ago
  "unlawfully and unabashedly mass-harvesting and redistributing postings entrusted by craigslist users to their local craigslist sites" Boo on Craigslist! They claim that they're protecting their users, but what harm is padmapper causing to people listing properties on Craigslist? Getting them more potential renters?
• webwright 14y ago
  What's it like to work as Craigslist and read this stuff? How could you be excited to come to work every day knowing that network effects have carved a deep moat around a site that people describe as "an exercise in torture"?
  • danielweber 14y ago
    "Yay I have job security" most likely.
• nostromo 14y ago
  Commenters here make this sound like an open and shut case in favor of Craigslist. IANAL, so could someone explain why Google's index of material covered by copyright is ok and PadMapper's is not?
  • mootothemax 14y ago
    Most likely because Google aren't using their service to compete with, e.g., Craigslist. I also imagine that if you ask Google (especially with a C&D), they'll be more than happy to remove you from their index.
  • debacle 14y ago
    Because if you ask Google to remove you from their index, they will. Rupert Murdoch has threatened this in the past. Each time he's backed down, because he knows that being removed from Google's index is akin to being removed from the Internet.
    • bluesnowmonkey 14y ago
      Craigslist doesn't needs to be removed from the search index. They just need to prevent caching of posts, which is what 3Taps was abusing. Noarchive in robots.txt ought to take care of that.
      • IanDrake 14y ago
        To your knowledge, is it against the law to not follow a site's robots.txt? I'm not aware of one, but I am curious.
        • debacle 14y ago
          I don't know if it's illegal, but Google would follow the site's robots.txt.
        • BenOfTomorrow 14y ago
          Ambiguous. See http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4286857 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4286857.
• jaysonelliot 14y ago
  "(Craigslist) said it offered a license that would have allowed PadMapper to use its data on mobile applications but that the competitor did not accept the terms." But on the other hand, "users and developers are exasperated with Craigslist’s insistence on preserving an outdated interface and design." I don't know the legal merits of either party's position, but from an ethical perspective, I tend to side with Craigslist here. Dissatisfaction with a commercial site's UI is not just cause for using their data without permission, particularly if they had made an effort to offer a licensing agreement, whatever the terms might have been.
  • wickedchicken 14y ago
    I see this from the opposite viewpoint, that PadMapper is operating as a search engine designed to help you find the right Craigslist posts for your apartment hunt. Claiming that PadMapper's success is from Craigslist failing to 'provide a good UI' is like suggesting that Google News' success is because newspaper companies failed to provide good article SEO. Instead, it's a different modality of content discovery, and it ultimately redirects you to the original source. In my (personal) opinion, I would argue that the content providers or aggregators and search engines benefit synergistically. CL and Belgian newspapers appear to disagree.
    • eli 14y ago
      I don't think this has any legal bearing for anyone, but it's worth noting that Google respects publishers who do not wish to be indexed.
      • hardtke 14y ago
        Here's the abstract for a nice review of search engine law: http://works.bepress.com/james_grimmelmann/13/ http://works.bepress.com/james_grimmelmann/13/ If I remember correctly, indexing a site that asks to not be indexed might be illegal as an illegal tresspass, but it is not settled law. The argument is that you are stealing resources (computer time) from the site owner.
• antidaily 14y ago
  Craig is paranoid about changing the UI of craigslist. So while I don't feel they're unjust in suing, he is indeed stifling innovation.
  • ben0x539 14y ago
    Why wouldn't he offer an alternative UI for craigslist while leaving the original running?
• rabidsnail 14y ago
  At least they're not claiming a violation of the CFAA (which I think would actually be a more straightforward argument).
  • debacle 14y ago
    Care you explain? I don't know what the CFAA is.
    • rabidsnail 14y ago
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_Fraud_and_Abuse_Act http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_Fraud_and_Abuse_Act The relevant part of the act would be: "Intentionally accessing a computer without authorization to obtain ... information from any protected computer". A "protected computer" is a computer "which is used in or affecting interstate or foreign commerce or communication", which fits Craisglist pretty well. Violation of the clause I quoted is a criminal offense with potential jail time.
      • debacle 14y ago
        I think they tried to circumvent that using 3tap or whatever the site was that was scraping Google's cache.
      • sureshv 14y ago
        That clause could be construed in any number of ways. Anyone accessing a web page could be liable if they have not 'obtained authorization' from the site owner.
• binaryorganic 14y ago
  How does this differ from Readability or Instapaper stripping advertisements away and serving users pure content in their respective interfaces? I'm not sure what they're doing is illegal.
  • bcbrown 14y ago
    Readability is just client-side code. Think of it as just a different implementation of a browser that ignores some markup and renders some markup in a non-standard way.
• oacgnol 14y ago
  There's no doubting the legality of Padmapper scraping Craigslist data, so I think now would be a good time for him to innovate and really push his other product, PadLister. If Eric were to write another blog post, I'd make PadLister the focus of it and start building a new community there.
• bicknergseng 14y ago
  How Craigslist can evolve: Become a for-pay API. Thoughts?
  • davidcollantes 14y ago
    It is up to Craigslist, and Craigslist only. I prefer not to speculate. They already offer an API for mobile.
• robomartin 14y ago
  Here are a couple of legal questions (not taking sides, just honest questions): Does the data belong to Craigslist or to those posting on Craigslist? If so, is this in their TOS? I don't remember ever clicking a checkbox that says "we own your listing" whenever I have sold stuff on Craigslist or posted jobs/gigs. Maybe real estate is different. Why would I want to give Craigslist ownership of my listing? If I were posting a property for rent I would probably want other services to pick-up the listing. Similarly, why do they own the Copyright on something I have written? Again, I don't remember ever giving that away either.
  • rm445 14y ago
    Last time this was discussed, people posted excerpts from Craigslist's terms, in which the user grants Craigslist the right to (i) Use their post, (ii) defend against others copying it. So, I haven't verified it, but the idea seems to be the user owns their post, and could post it elsewhere if they wanted - but Craigslist has the right to stop other sites copying posts direct from Craigslist.
    • learc83 14y ago
      There was a recent case where the judge ruled that a company that didn't own a copyright, but was assigned a license in order to sue infringers on the owners behalf, didn't in fact have standing to sue.
  • RandallBrown 14y ago
    I'm fairly sure that craigslist does NOT own the data, the person posting the listing does. The article mentions this. That's what makes this a little less open and shut, at least to me.
• zspade 14y ago
  Has there ever been any consideration at some kind of partnership? I know there may be some bad blood at this point, but I don't see how it wouldn't benefit both Padmapper and Craigslist to potentially work together to create an alternate Craigslist(using the same data). The contracts would have to be thorough about profit sharing, but it seems at least possible. If people had a secondary Craigslist portal they could use to access the same data, while avoiding the shitty interface, more and more might migrate over to the new 'design'. The current Craislist design has been dated for some time, and I just can't see a startup or even a big player not moving into their space with a better design and interface.
  • iamwil 14y ago
    Eric from Padmapper has tried to get an audience with them, but both Craig and Jim wouldn't take a meeting. They sent a license, but that was only for mobile apps. Most people use padmapper though the website.
• keeptrying 14y ago
  Heartbreaking. Padmapper is the best apartment rental interface out there. The author has been single handedly working on this for 3-4 years and constantly improving his system. Legally he might not have been in the right but we should be helping him out not uselessly debating and casting judgement. If theres anyone who exmplifies the true spirit of Hacker News it would be the author of PadMapper.
  • greyboy 14y ago
    > Legally he might not have been in the right but we should be helping him out not uselessly debating and casting judgement. If he's not "legally not in the right," why should I be helping him (doesn't that imply casting a judgement - that PadMapper is elevated above CraigsList because it's "the best apartment rental interface our there")? What if the tables were turned and CraigsList was violating PadMapper's TOS? Would you be willing to help CraigsList (they serve more than only apartment listings)? Should somebody be rewarded, even if (legally) not in the right, just because he/she is a hard worker/smarty pants/exemplifies the True Hacker Spirit? I often wonder if there is some sort of unwritten clause that You-Must-Pull-For-The-Underdog to join Hacker News? (In the name of Divine Disruption, of course.)
    • potatolicious 14y ago
      > "If he's not "legally not in the right," why should I be helping him (doesn't that imply casting a judgement - that PadMapper is elevated above CraigsList because it's "the best apartment rental interface our there")?" Because legal right and moral right sometimes intersect, but not nearly always. Because once in a blue moon somebody comes along and creates something with such enormous public good that it forces us to reconsider the context of both legal and moral righteousness.
      • greyboy 14y ago
        That's all well and good, and I understand the point, but it does't appear to apply to PadMapper. Personally, while I'm not a big fan of Craiglist's UI, it's stretching it to think that PadMapper would be classified as "such enormous public good" simply because a small subset of total Craigslist (and Internet) users (most likely in a small subset of American cities) are fond of it.
• ChuckMcM 14y ago
  This isn't surprising of course, it is their data after all, but it brings up the 'easy problem' / 'hard problem' (E/H-P) conundrum quite nicely. The conundrum is that it is 'easy' to take an existing, quality data source, and re-skin it for broader market appeal. This is something that Craigslist should be doing but perhaps through poor management are not. It is 'hard' to take a conceptual model of skinning and building a quality data source behind it. As I said elsewhere, the PadMapper guys might have taken this to Craigslist and said "Look what we can do with your data, lets make happy music together." and then debated the terms. Or they could take their UX to the venture capital world and say "Look at this cool product we could build if we had access to a database with Craig list's quality" and debate cap tables and dilution (assuming they got to that stage of a term sheet). But they chose the third route, "Lets see how long we can get away with this..." and the timer on that just ran out. Sadly, this third path makes the first two paths much harder. Craigslist already sees them as the 'enemy' and VCs will see them as a team that makes poor choices. Both views make it harder (but certainly not impossible) to consummate a deal. However, from the blog and from previous postings here it seems they made those choices with their eyes open.
  • learc83 14y ago
    >This isn't surprising of course, it is their data after all, But that's the thing. It isn't their data. They specifically say so in their TOS. The copyright belongs to the user. You can't say the listing belongs to the user (to protect you from liability) on one hand, and then say the data belongs to craigslist on the other. They could always do what map companies have done forever to prevent copyright. Facts can't be copyrighted so map makers insert fictional cities. If someone copies the map they are copying the fictional city and thus violating their copyright. Craigslist could add a fictional listing here and there that they do own the copyright to.
    • mikeryan 14y ago
      I have no idea how this is going to playout but if there's a copyright argument to be made, it won't be on the copyright of each listing, but the copyright on the compilation of the listings. You can't say the listing belongs to the user on one hand, and then say the data belongs to craigslist on the other. You can in fact make this argument in the case of compilations in copyright law - think a compilation of short stories or one of those "Songs of the 90s albums" - the initial authors still own their work, but the entity which creates the compilation still owns the right to the entire compiled work. (I intentionally edited your statement - don't want to bring liability into this, I think its a separate issue and a bit of a red herring w/r/t this discussion).
• awkward 14y ago
  I think a lot of the work to put a quality UI on craigslist ignores something very important about user psychology - seeing your data that you willingly gave to one organization publicly available in the hands of another one is generally perceived as creepy. Apartment listings may be less sensitive than other kinds of data, but they're still personal, and some users may not want their listing showing up in different venues even if others will take whatever publicity they get. Most programmers and designers have made peace with the idea that what's public on the internet is public for the whole internet, but I think most people perceive this kind of information leakage as a lack of control. I think that Craigslist, more than most companies, has a real understanding of this, and a lot of their restrictions that may seem arbitrary to entrepreneurs come out of it.
• badclient 14y ago
  This is the beginning of the end for CL. You can just sense by actions such as this what their survival strategy is. While legally they may win this battle, in the long run, I think CL is headed to deadpool in the next 5 years.
• dredmorbius 14y ago
  My view on this is much as it was before: - The Craigslist apartments listing interface really, really sucks. - Padmapper's search interface is much, much better. - CL almost certainly have legal recourse to control use of their data and trademarks, or at least make things miserable for PadMapper should they choose to do so. Which would put a crimp on PM's future growth prospects as a lawsuit magnet. - CL undoubtedly add value to their listings by filtering (through community input) for misclassified and spam listings. - I really wish the two organizations could reach an equitable compromise which preserves the PM interface concept. Licensed use. Buyout. Whatever. - Barring that, CL are ripe for disruption. My read is that PM have enough mojo at this point to make it on their own by licensing listings from other sources and soliciting them on their own.
• Apreche 14y ago
  If what 3Taps is doing is illegal, then what Google is doing is illegal. It's a search engine.
  • intended 14y ago
    If you send google a c and d, they will comply. Pad mapper was sent a c&d and decided to not comply. Hence the case. Edit: and as has been pointed out, google isn't competing with Craig's list. Padmapper's gameplan is to disintermediate Craigslist away.
• deleted 14y ago
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• declan 14y ago
  Craigslist has the better of the arguments; both Padmapper and 3taps are violating (and probably bound by) the terms of use agreement: https://plus.google.com/112961607570158342254/posts/HcCuHVG7rLM https://plus.google.com/112961607570158342254/posts/HcCuHVG7...
• mnicole 14y ago
  I think Padmapper in particular is in a unique position where while they started with CL listings, it's proven itself an invaluable enough service to enough of us to the point where I'd use it exclusively to list my apartment over Craigslist. I'd even pay month-to-month for exclusive or time-sensitive listings given the way I use it. Whether or not Padmapper is in the right here, CL's long-standing stance in not evolving their UI or creating a decent API is going to bite them in the ass. Helping people sort your content is now more important for them than the idea that change is bad or time-consuming. As many people have said in the past, it wouldn't take much to really bring CL up-to-speed, but if they don't want to do it themselves, they should at least make it an option for others to pay a fee to use the data. Edit: Didn't realize http://www.padlister.com/ http://www.padlister.com/ already existed. Score.
• MnkyPwz 14y ago
  In my mind this article, and moreover the lawsuit itself, may be a glimpse into what might be a revolutionary revamp of Craigslist and it's community. Its no secret that the CL community have frequently requested an update to the UI as well as many additional features to be added in order to make using the site much more friendly; although with no changes being implemented at this point. I look at this litigation as a foreshadowing of what may be in store for the CL community. With that said, shutting off access of those parties utilizing their services without proper consent may be the first in a strategic battle plan for the CL team in order to ensure they have the most optimal acceptance of their revamp. Anyone else see it this way, or am I indulging wishful thinking?
• blorenz 14y ago
  I hope that PadMapper does not back down. Craigslist is making their data publicly displayed. Consumers consume it - be it people or machines. It will be interesting how this plays out. Screen scraping is analogous to the analog loophole: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analog_loophole https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analog_loophole.
• rezaman 14y ago
  I wonder why craigslist hasn't shut down http://housingmaps.com http://housingmaps.com yet. They appear to be doing the exact same thing as padmapper and mapskrieg, albeit with a much smaller feature set.
• nlh 14y ago
  I find this sort of thing very frustrating to read: "The search tool is antiquated, the images are poor or nonexistent, locations of listings are hardly dependable, and you can forget about an integrated way to save anything for later reference. There is a litany of shortcomings that come with the Craigslist apartment search; they are many and they are painful..." If you don't like the site, don't like the UI, and can't stand the UX, then don't use the site. Nobody is forcing you to search for an apartment on CL. Nobody is forcing owners to list apartments on CL. And so now we get to the meat ... "...Your site is chock-full of data I need..." Ahh...data you NEED. So here's the thing. If you truly need the data, then you need Craigslist and you have an obligation to use it the way they (and only they) want you to use it. If you don't like the way they want you to use it, there are several choices: * Go work for them and convince them to improve it. * Build a better mousetrap. The former probably won't succeed, so the latter seems to be the way to go. Look, there's nothing preventing landlords from listing their apartments on Craigslist AND your new Craigslist replacement/improvement. They're not locked in. If they were, that would be a whole different discussion - then we can talk about anti-competitive, innovation-stifling behavior. But that's not the case - the only reason people list apartments on CL is because it works. Despite the bad UI. Hence the reason CL hasn't changed it. So it's the job of some enterprising entrepreneur not only ro build a better mousetrap, but convince people to use it. Until that happens, as much as I too dislike the Craigslist UI, I can't say I support PadMapper on this one.
  • crazygringo 14y ago
    > If you don't like the site, don't like the UI, and can't stand the UX, then don't use the site. Nobody is forcing you to search for an apartment on CL. Nobody is forcing owners to list apartments on CL. Yes they are being "forced" to list on CL, because as much as you hate the UX, UI, etc., that's where the buyers are. And as much as the buyers hate the site, that's where the sellers are. I hate CL, but I was forced to use it because lock-in makes it impossible for anyone else to compete.
  • Goronmon 14y ago
    If you don't like the site, don't like the UI, and can't stand the UX, then don't use the site. Nobody is forcing you to search for an apartment on CL. Nobody is forcing owners to list apartments on CL. Apartments aren't a fungible item. If I'm looking for an apartment in a certain area and 75% of the apartments in that area are only being listed on Craigslist, then how can I realistically "choose" to use another avenue for apartment listings? Look, there's nothing preventing landlords from listing their apartments on Craigslist AND your new Craigslist replacement/improvement. There are huge barriers preventing landlords from listing their apartments outside of craigslist. Nothing is as popular, so why waste the time? They don't have hours to scour the internet looking for alternatives, nor do they probably want to have to manage listings at many difference sites.
• deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
• bugsbunnyak 14y ago
  Padmapper ought to do a better job of leveraging this publicity. Apartment season is in full swing in college towns across the country and they need to push really hard to get the word out about Padlister: in particular, the fact that it will cross-post to Craigslist automatically (so you don't lose any viewers). This doesn't matter for realtors - they already have systems to autospam Craiglist. But it does matter to self-listers. They could get good traction targeting roommate listers and seekers as a way to build organic listings and eyeballs. Create a viral campaign. I would share it, and I know plenty of other people who would because Padmapper has made such a difference.
• dap 14y ago
  "You're not wrong, [Craigslist], you're just an asshole." I don't know who's legally right, but I've got no sympathy for Craigslist. They've got a monopoly on the data (whether right or wrong) and refuse to either build a decent UI for consumers or let other people do so. That sounds bad, but I think you can't know how infuriating it really is until you've tried to find housing in a town where CL is the only real option and where demand far exceeds supply (where you spend many, many hours on the effort because of intense demand-side competition).
• learc83 14y ago
  If you look at the case of Righthaven (copyright troll), a federal judge ruled that even though the copyright owner granted them a license to sue infringers to stop copying, Righthaven didn't have standing to sue because they didn't actually own the copyright.
• aggronn 14y ago
  http://www.quora.com/Why-hasnt-anyone-built-any-products-on-top-of-Craigslist-data http://www.quora.com/Why-hasnt-anyone-built-any-products-on-... In particular, read the comments by Craig himself. Funny how these things change.
  • IanDrake 14y ago
    Snip from Craig - "Actually, we take issue with only services which consume a lot of bandwidth, it's that simple." I guess that wasn't true.
• AndyKelley 14y ago
  Craigslist makes its data publicly available. How can it be illegal to access that data? It may be against Craigslist's Terms of Service, but that means it's up to Craigslist to figure out how to prevent scraping. It does not mean the law needs to be involved.
• dotborg 14y ago
  Craiglist doesn't display ads
  • dredmorbius 14y ago
    Craigslist is ads.
• bherms 14y ago
  I know Calacanis is a polarizing figure in the community, but I've always agreed with him that you shouldn't piggyback your company's success on top of a single service. edit: especially one that doesn't allow you to use their data in the first place.
• allardschip 14y ago
  Why did Craigslist decided to sue padmapper but let housingmaps.com live for many years is puzzling to me. Anyone has an idea why?
• drumdance 14y ago
  Compare & contrast the CL lawyers' behavior with the Jack Daniels trademark lawyers a few days ago.
• joshAg 14y ago
  this reminds me a lot of Feist V Rural [1]; I just hope it turns out the same way. [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feist_v._Rural http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feist_v._Rural
• blissofbeing 14y ago
  I feel like there is a win win solution for everyone here. How about Padmapper develop a plugin for chrome/firefox that once you go to a craigslist appartment list page, it does what it does now: loops through them all and displays them on a google map. Padmapper could even develop on API on their end which handled all the hard work of actually finding the correct address of the posts and sends it back to the plugin in a nice format and all it has to do is plot in on a map that the plugin places on the craigslist page. This sounds legal to me, as Padmapper isn't actually storing anything, and it puts a UI on top of the apartment search page.
  • danielweber 14y ago
    That sounds similar to RECAP, which is a free interface to the for-money PACER database of legal filings. RECAP is on a better legal footing because the filings are public domain instead of owned by someone.
• drumdance 14y ago
  Reminds me of Craig Newmark's lawsuit against the networks a few years back. In that case he wanted to assert the right to use DVRs to skip commercials.
• pg 14y ago
  Craig Newmark said on Quora that the reason they didn't like people building stuff on top of Craigslist was simply the extra bandwidth they consumed: http://www.quora.com/Why-hasnt-anyone-built-any-products-on-top-of-Craigslist-data http://www.quora.com/Why-hasnt-anyone-built-any-products-on-... But now that 3Taps has found an ingenious way to get at the data with zero extra bandwidth cost to Craigslist (by retrieving it from the Google cache rather than CL itself), it's clear that what Craigslist really dislikes is competition. While Craigslist is probably within their legal rights here, this case shows that for all their talk about their benevolent aims, Craigslist is no different from other companies.
  • dredmorbius 14y ago
    Yep. I told you so: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4219543 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4219543
  • jahewson 14y ago
    Craigslist is probably within their legal rights here I would really call this into question for the copyright claims. The key claim is copyright infringement, and the listings on Craigslist are almost certainly unprotected, much like telephone directory listings. They are statements of fact rather than creative works. Craigslist may attempt to claim copyright over reproduction of their database as a whole (compilation), but the Supreme Court has ruled that in order to be eligible the compilation must be "original in its selection, coordination, and arrangement", and Craigslist can hardly claim that. The breach of contract claims may be stronger though. The pages on the Google cache presumably still contain the ToS, and if they apply (who knows?) then PadMapper's use of Craigslist would likely constitute a breach. A ruling on this would be very interesting.
    • DanBlake 14y ago
      Another thought is that padmapper is not /copying/ the data - They are summarizing it. So there could be a entire listing for a SF apartment with lots of details and padmapper would not copy any of it- instead they would just make notes - 3 bedroom, location, price, pictures and then link back to CL if someone clicks the listing on PM
• RandallBrown 14y ago
  Why doesn't Craigslist want PadMapper using their information? (I know that's irrelevant to the lawsuit) The more people that use PadMapper and find CraigsList entries on there, the more people that are using CraigsList. Why wouldn't they want that? If I were a real estate listing company, I'd want my data to be found on as many real estate search apps as possible.
  • slig 14y ago
    One reason is that once they're big enough, they can just flip the bird at craigslist and use their own data.
• beatpanda 14y ago
  This is absolute bullshit. Craigslist is located in San Francisco, and they should be intimately aware of how fucking difficult it is to find an apartment in this city with Craigslist's garbage interface. Are there any Craigslist employees reading this? Would any of you like a full time job sorting through the cesspool that is your apartment listings page? Oh, you wouldn't? I don't blame you, because that's my job right now, and PadMapper is the only thing helping me preserve what's left of my sanity. Do a better job than them or shut the fuck up. Stop hurting people by trying to shut PadMapper down.
• callmeed 14y ago
  Google indexes craigslist (obviously) https://www.google.com/search?btnG=1&pws=0&q=iphone+site%3Asfbay.craigslist.org https://www.google.com/search?btnG=1&pws=0&q=iphone+... They even have cached thumbnails and you can likely use their custom search API to get results, snippets, etc. Is what 3taps does that different?
• user49598 14y ago
  A few of humble opinions: Padmapper is probably getting enough publicity out of this to get over the critical mass problem and will be able to rely on their own listings. Craigslist content is user generated, and the copyrights remain property of the users. While facts aren't copyrightable anything that padmapper displays that isn't just a fact, photos or a realtor's description for example, is a copyright violation. This is why sites like stack overflow are awesome, because they licence "their" content, aka your work cc-wiki and claim no ownership. The bummer here is not that craigslist is suing over unauthorized data access, it's that your work is too restrictively licenced on their site to be of maximum benefit to you.
• njharman 14y ago
  > Users and developers are exasperated with Craigslist’s insistence on preserving an outdated interface and design. Well then go use / collect your own apt listings, lobby congress to pass compulsory use licensing for all entities that collect data, or STFU.
• pirateking 14y ago
  I love Craigslist, and have used it for years successfully. It is the type of tool I love using the web for - simple, functional, and document based. All of this anti-Craigslist sentiment makes me sad.
• 205guy 14y ago
  I'm rather tired of all the sanctimonious, edgier-than-thou commenters and bloggers who keep saying CL has a "shitty UI." And that't not just because I like it (it's clean, simple, and easy to use). I totally agree that it could be improved, and maps do make it easier, but the CL interface never breaks or gets in the way the way an actual shitty UI does. Also, I think a lot of complainers are not aware of what it takes to roll out UI design changes to hundreds of millions of users. Frankly, I'm not very knowlegeable myself, but I can stop and think about it for a second and imagine there are huge logistical issues (performance, browsers, etc.) and huge psychological issues (non-technical users, familiarity, etc.) And then there's the whole question of whether CL's UI should be improved. There are clear benefits to having a simple UI that does not do everything for the user. When I used it to find housing near SF, I copy-pasted addresses to map them, and I did a little extra work, but I never found that CL was actually in my way. For neighborhoods and recommendations, I asked real people. When I looked for a car, I made a little spreadsheet to give weighted scores to the features I wanted--I did not go around whining that CL didn't do everything for me. My impression is that CL wants to be a basic classified service. For whatever reason they don't want to morph into a specialized listing service, and I can understand and respect that. After all, the CL interface is not that much different from HN's. PS: I've had this item open in my browser for maybe an hour or two--why does the Add Comment button turn into a "dead link" OMG such a shitty UI, if they won't fix it, I am justified in rehosting all the content on a better site.
  • jacoblyles 14y ago
    The millions of people who use padmapper every month seem to think it is a preferable experience to going on Craigslist, trying to figure out if Mountain View is a "Peninsula" or "South Bay" city, and then discovering the wonderful diversity of places that humans will call "Mountain View" one listing at a time.
• 205guy 14y ago
  I'm rather tired of all the sanctimonious, edgier-than-thou commenters and bloggers who keep saying CL has a "shitty UI." And that't not just because I like it (it's clean, simple, and easy to use). I totally agree that it could be improved, and maps do make it easier, but the CL interface never breaks or gets in the way the way an actual shitty UI does. Also, I think a lot of complainers are not aware of what it takes to roll out UI design changes to hundreds of millions of users. Frankly, I'm not very knowlegeable myself, but I can stop and think about it for a second and imagine there are huge logistical issues (performance, browsers, etc.) and huge psychological issues (non-technical users, familiarity, etc.) And then there's the whole question of whether CL's UI should be improved. There are clear benefits to having a simple UI that does not do everything for the user. When I used it to find housing near SF, I copy-pasted addresses to map them, and I did a little extra work, but I never found that CL was actually in my way. For neighborhoods and recommendations, I asked real people. When I looked for a car, I made a little spreadsheet to give weighted scores to the features I wanted--I did not go around whining that CL didn't do everything for me. My impression is that CL wants to be a basic classified service. For whatever reason they don't want to morph into a specialized listing service, and I can understand and respect that. After all, the CL interface is not that much different from HN's. PS: I've had this item open in my browser for maybe an hour or two--why does the Add Comment button turn into a "dead link" OMG such a shitty UI, if they won't fix it, I am justified in rehosting all the content on a better site.
• aneth4 14y ago
  If we are lucky, they will settle for PadMapper's assets - and use them.
• enduser987 14y ago
  Ha. They need to sue Google and other search engines that provide caches. Good luck with that. Second, it's not infromation that's protectable by copyright (at least not in the US). It's like the telephone book as others have said. There's heaps of websites that mistakenly believe they have some copyrights to assert against users that harvest data. But it's not just websites. A longstanding, classic example of this sort of silly argument is WHOIS. The registries can't stand the thought of others getting the data. They claim bandwidth is an issue. Yet they won't provide (mirrored) bulk data, which would easily resolve any such bandwidth claims. They purport to "license" the right to do things with the data, yet they have no rights to grant to begin with. It is public data. Then there's the "spam issue". As if email is somehow different from direct mail, and from telemarketing. Why don't we outlaw those practices? Anyhow, again, it's public data: addresses and phone numbers. We call it the telephone book. If, e.g., a brokerage wants to have its summer interns do cold calling to solicit new institutional investors, the interns do not need a "license to use the telephone book". If someone listed in the phone directory does not want to be called, there's no law that says they have to be listed; they can use a nonlisted phone number. People who list with CL presumably want their information to be found and to be presented in an appealing way. Maybe not exclusively on CL. Maybe CL should ask them what they would prefer.
• iamanerd 14y ago
  Does accessing a page in a search engine cache provide assent to the terms of service for the cached page? What if the user has never even visited the cached website? C'mon HN users. Use your noodle! CL, which is supposed to be a free service, is looking quite petty here. Baseless lawsuits are more what we'd expect from a PadMapper-like site, which are a dime-a-dozen. The wonderful thing about the US is almost anyone can sue almost anyone else and assuming the court rules are followed, the filing will be accepted. A "live" lawsuit is only a matter of paying a lawyer. Of course, how long the suit live will depend on facts. Others have tried these TOS arguments (where the user has visited the site, not simply a cached page in a search engine) and they have failed. If you want to stop scraping, then do not put the data on the public web. Put it behind password access and your chances in court increase exponentially.
• slowpoison 14y ago
  I'm getting sick of the general attitude here. A majority of people seem to think that it's OK to copy user posting data from CL, because they are a monopoly. IE is cited as an example of a monopoly, thus anything is OK to take it down. That attitude is horribly wrong. Agreed, CL is a monopoly. Agreed, they are holding back innovation. But, you don't disrupt a business (and build yours) by copying their data, especially illegally. Although, the legality of issue at hand is up in the air right now, the general attitude is a bit appalling. What's required is a way for users to post their listings simultaneously at other properties. The content of the postings belongs to the user and they should be free to re-post it anywhere.
• delackner 14y ago
  The USER intent is to have their listing seen by as many people as possible. If the courts decide that the listing site can block access to such public listings they have been entrusted with, I don't know how the law needs to change, but the current legal situation is bad for the general public, bad for commerce, and bad for progress.
• paulschreiber 14y ago
  If Craigslist spent as much on UI or API designers as they did on lawyers, we'd all be better off.