5 ms·

I like the idea behind Gittip, but I think this is bullshit: "company are developed for the benefit of society as a whole, and not just the mutual benefit of th

by amix 14y ago

I like the idea behind Gittip, but I think this is bullshit: "company are developed for the benefit of society as a whole, and not just the mutual benefit of the members of the cooperative" Most companies are developed for the society and for people and most advances in human history have been done by for-profit organizations. Even the ideas in capitalism (as stated in e.g. Wealth of Nations) are grounded in benefits for the society and for the people.

whit537 14y ago
My point about benefit to society vs. mutual benefit was a technical one about the definition of an open company vis-a-vis the definition of a cooperative, "an autonomous association of persons who voluntarily cooperate for their mutual social, economic, and cultural benefit"[0]. It wasn't meant to be ideological. I love cooperatives. I started one: an organic produce growers' cooperative. I also love Wealth of Nations, and I love capitalism. The company behind Gittip, Zeta Design & Development, LLC, was started in 2002 as a for-profit company and was run that way for a decade. Here's me praising corporations: http://blog.gittip.com/post/25215503687/corporations-and-open-ones http://blog.gittip.com/post/25215503687/corporations-and-ope... My question is, can we do even better? ---- [0] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cooperative http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cooperative
- amix 14y ago
  Ok, thanks for the clarification. I had read cooperative as a corporation (or understood it like that).
  - whit537 14y ago
    Phew. :-)
why-el 14y ago
> most advances in human history have been done by for-profit organizations You mean most advances in (very) recent history right? And I am a bit skeptical about the claim that companies are developed for the benefit of the people. Again, I have a problem with your generalizations. At least in our field, a lot of the research is actually publicly funded.
rokhayakebe 14y ago
Most real-life applications of discoveries that advanced humanity have been done by for-profit organizations. Applied science. Most advances in human history have been done by individuals who were simply passionate about a topic, and they did not do it for money. Theoretical science.
- edanm 14y ago
  Do you have a source for this claim? Although honestly, I think we shouldn't talk about "most" throughout history, because democracy/free trade/capitalism is pretty new, so we need to normalize for that.
  - rokhayakebe 14y ago
    Google: 2 guys doing a PHD, work on their thesis, not for money (Theory). They later realize they could turn this into a business (Application). Programming language, OSS, and platforms: A few friends or a lone guy/gal know they can do something way better or create a programming language or a database system more powerful than what is out there (Theory). Millions of other programmers use the language, tools and build powerful businesses such as Facebook and Twitter around it(Application). This is probably why you can do a startup today for $0 upfront cost. I doubt Einstein spent countless hours working his brains off for money, Darwin did not go across continents to study the origin of species for money, Bethoveen did not write symphonies solely for money. Yet many other talented individuals have used their findings and made loads of money along the way.
    - whit537 14y ago
      whisper I tip dead people! whisper
    - sadga 14y ago
      Considering Googler guys never even published their thesis... they went commercial pretty quick after hitting their idea, and dedicated the largest portion of their lives to the business end.
  - 14y ago
aik 14y ago
> "Most companies are developed for the society and for people" I think most companies exist to make money. However the "invisible hand" often leads to mutual benefit.
funthree 14y ago
>most advances in human history have been done by for-profit organizations. Not even close. Also, see the article about how cartels are an emergent property[1] of a free market. Not that there really exists a better system than what we currently have, but don't kid yourself into thinking capitalism is some kind of benevolent savior of mankind. It's just not true. 1. http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3494224 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3494224
- russell 14y ago
  Good stuff. Way back in the day I decided to become a software developer instead of getting my PhD in economics. Economics didnt make any sense to me. It was all philosophy and religion. As an undergraduate, I read only one article that had even basic calculus in it. Perhaps I should have majored in physics and then got my Economics PhD., but nobody did that sort of thing.
DividesByZero 14y ago
Minor point, but On The Wealth of Nations has nothing to say for or against Capitalism.

by amix 14y ago

whit537 14y ago

My point about benefit to society vs. mutual benefit was a technical one about the definition of an open company vis-a-vis the definition of a cooperative, "an autonomous association of persons who voluntarily cooperate for their mutual social, economic, and cultural benefit"[0]. It wasn't meant to be ideological. I love cooperatives. I started one: an organic produce growers' cooperative. I also love Wealth of Nations, and I love capitalism. The company behind Gittip, Zeta Design & Development, LLC, was started in 2002 as a for-profit company and was run that way for a decade. Here's me praising corporations: http://blog.gittip.com/post/25215503687/corporations-and-open-ones http://blog.gittip.com/post/25215503687/corporations-and-ope... My question is, can we do even better? ---- [0] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cooperative http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cooperative

amix 14y ago
Ok, thanks for the clarification. I had read cooperative as a corporation (or understood it like that).
- whit537 14y ago
  Phew. :-)

why-el 14y ago

> most advances in human history have been done by for-profit organizations You mean most advances in (very) recent history right? And I am a bit skeptical about the claim that companies are developed for the benefit of the people. Again, I have a problem with your generalizations. At least in our field, a lot of the research is actually publicly funded.

rokhayakebe 14y ago

Most real-life applications of discoveries that advanced humanity have been done by for-profit organizations. Applied science. Most advances in human history have been done by individuals who were simply passionate about a topic, and they did not do it for money. Theoretical science.

edanm 14y ago
Do you have a source for this claim? Although honestly, I think we shouldn't talk about "most" throughout history, because democracy/free trade/capitalism is pretty new, so we need to normalize for that.
- rokhayakebe 14y ago
  Google: 2 guys doing a PHD, work on their thesis, not for money (Theory). They later realize they could turn this into a business (Application). Programming language, OSS, and platforms: A few friends or a lone guy/gal know they can do something way better or create a programming language or a database system more powerful than what is out there (Theory). Millions of other programmers use the language, tools and build powerful businesses such as Facebook and Twitter around it(Application). This is probably why you can do a startup today for $0 upfront cost. I doubt Einstein spent countless hours working his brains off for money, Darwin did not go across continents to study the origin of species for money, Bethoveen did not write symphonies solely for money. Yet many other talented individuals have used their findings and made loads of money along the way.
  - whit537 14y ago
    whisper I tip dead people! whisper
  - sadga 14y ago
    Considering Googler guys never even published their thesis... they went commercial pretty quick after hitting their idea, and dedicated the largest portion of their lives to the business end.
- 14y ago

aik 14y ago

> "Most companies are developed for the society and for people" I think most companies exist to make money. However the "invisible hand" often leads to mutual benefit.

funthree 14y ago

>most advances in human history have been done by for-profit organizations. Not even close. Also, see the article about how cartels are an emergent property[1] of a free market. Not that there really exists a better system than what we currently have, but don't kid yourself into thinking capitalism is some kind of benevolent savior of mankind. It's just not true. 1. http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3494224 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3494224

russell 14y ago
Good stuff. Way back in the day I decided to become a software developer instead of getting my PhD in economics. Economics didnt make any sense to me. It was all philosophy and religion. As an undergraduate, I read only one article that had even basic calculus in it. Perhaps I should have majored in physics and then got my Economics PhD., but nobody did that sort of thing.

DividesByZero 14y ago

Minor point, but On The Wealth of Nations has nothing to say for or against Capitalism.