4 ms·

Based on the article (see archive link by bushido), this might actually get very serious. Looks like politician are now involved and I'm sure Altman and Elliso

by sdesol 2y ago

Based on the article (see archive link by bushido), this might actually get very serious. Looks like politician are now involved and I'm sure Altman and Ellison are going to lean hard. --- David Sacks, President Donald Trump’s artificial intelligence czar, said Tuesday there’s “substantial evidence” that DeepSeek leaned on the output of OpenAI’s models to help develop its own technology. In an interview with Fox News, Sacks described a technique called distillation whereby one AI model uses the outputs of another for training purposes to develop similar capabilities. ---

8note 2y ago
so far, OpenAi holds no copyright over those outputs, and even if they did, its fair use to train on them. T&C violations at the worst?
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- sdesol 2y ago
  Who knows with the Trump administration and their stacked Supreme court. I'm guessing what is going to be debated is not so much the data itself, but the means of obtaining the data. Basically there was breach of contract somewhere.
  - blibble 2y ago
    why would the Chinese pay any attention to a foreign court? especially on a matter of national interest a US court has no ability to enforce its judgement on Chinese actions in China
    - sdesol 2y ago
      This isn't about the China now. This is about preventing people from providing/using DeepSeek. Basically, this is about ensuring DeepSeek only has a market in China or in other China friendly countries.
      - this_weekend 2y ago
        Tech advances race ahead of legal systems. By the time the law adapts and can target DeepSeek, DeepSeek and others will be 2 generations ahead using different paradigms that render the new laws obsolete.
jazzyjackson 2y ago
What are they gonna do, set Tariffs on free software from China?
- sdesol 2y ago
  I suspect the goal is to make it not viable for any company to host the model and provide API services and create a choke point with deepseek.com This is actually quite serious in my opinion, as running the 671B model is not trivial and I was hoping more vendors would pop up to provide API services.
  - bubblethink 2y ago
    This is an open-weights model. There is literally nothing that the government can do to stop anyone from hosting the model. People hosting R1 have no relationship with MS or OpenAI. There is no contractual violation, no copyright violation.
    - sdesol 2y ago
      > There is literally nothing that the government can do to stop anyone from hosting the model. I admire your optimism but the simple fact is, you have a person in power that can be easily bribed and you have VERY rich people that stand to lose a lot. DeepSeek v3 is something I would actually install a VPN for, to get access to it, if it becomes an issue in Canada. It truly is on par with Sonnet and cost 15 times less. My hope is, people will start to use DeepSeek v3 to do what DeepSeek is accused of having done and by the time things make it to court, it would be too late as there would be no way to say where any of the data came from.
      - bubblethink 2y ago
        That's not how any of this works. The fear mongering has no basis. Deepseek the company is not related to the weights of the model. The model cannot be outlawed. At worst, you can block Deepseek the company from the app store, cloud providers etc. That has nothing to do with the model.
t2oi4h324jl234 2y ago
OAI hasn't exposed the CoT trace in the API. Just using OAI for creating more Q&A pairs, while slightly questionable, is neither controvertial nor a big issue. (if this was substantially large, OAI would already know from the API bills).
- sdesol 2y ago
  Did you read the article? The amount of data taken was enough to trip wires. Microsoft’s security researchers in the fall observed individuals they believe may be linked to DeepSeek exfiltrating a large amount of data using the OpenAI application programming interface, or API.
  - snovv_crash 2y ago
    Exfiltrate is a very strong word to use when they paid for the data just like OpenAI and Microsoft wanted them to.
    - sdesol 2y ago
      Well, it looks like the ball is in the politicians' court right now, and who knows where this will lead. I said it in another comment, but I hope others in China and around the world will start to use v3 to build better models and by the time any legislation comes into play, it would be too late.
  - t2oi4h324jl234 2y ago
    As noted "exfiltration" doesn't say anything other than maybe that they broke the ToS. There's no Chain-of-Thought trace available in OpenAI; and so all this FuD about DeepSeek's technical achievement, which achieves this completely via RL, is for nought. Westerners have this annoying habbit of framing their irrational hate for other groups (typ. racial) as some sort of righteous/moral stand. I don't care for this non-sense since I'm not part of this game.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

by sdesol 2y ago

8note 2y ago

so far, OpenAi holds no copyright over those outputs, and even if they did, its fair use to train on them. T&C violations at the worst?

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
sdesol 2y ago
Who knows with the Trump administration and their stacked Supreme court. I'm guessing what is going to be debated is not so much the data itself, but the means of obtaining the data. Basically there was breach of contract somewhere.
- blibble 2y ago
  why would the Chinese pay any attention to a foreign court? especially on a matter of national interest a US court has no ability to enforce its judgement on Chinese actions in China
  - sdesol 2y ago
    This isn't about the China now. This is about preventing people from providing/using DeepSeek. Basically, this is about ensuring DeepSeek only has a market in China or in other China friendly countries.
    - this_weekend 2y ago
      Tech advances race ahead of legal systems. By the time the law adapts and can target DeepSeek, DeepSeek and others will be 2 generations ahead using different paradigms that render the new laws obsolete.

jazzyjackson 2y ago

What are they gonna do, set Tariffs on free software from China?

sdesol 2y ago
I suspect the goal is to make it not viable for any company to host the model and provide API services and create a choke point with deepseek.com This is actually quite serious in my opinion, as running the 671B model is not trivial and I was hoping more vendors would pop up to provide API services.
- bubblethink 2y ago
  This is an open-weights model. There is literally nothing that the government can do to stop anyone from hosting the model. People hosting R1 have no relationship with MS or OpenAI. There is no contractual violation, no copyright violation.
  - sdesol 2y ago
    > There is literally nothing that the government can do to stop anyone from hosting the model. I admire your optimism but the simple fact is, you have a person in power that can be easily bribed and you have VERY rich people that stand to lose a lot. DeepSeek v3 is something I would actually install a VPN for, to get access to it, if it becomes an issue in Canada. It truly is on par with Sonnet and cost 15 times less. My hope is, people will start to use DeepSeek v3 to do what DeepSeek is accused of having done and by the time things make it to court, it would be too late as there would be no way to say where any of the data came from.
    - bubblethink 2y ago
      That's not how any of this works. The fear mongering has no basis. Deepseek the company is not related to the weights of the model. The model cannot be outlawed. At worst, you can block Deepseek the company from the app store, cloud providers etc. That has nothing to do with the model.

t2oi4h324jl234 2y ago

OAI hasn't exposed the CoT trace in the API. Just using OAI for creating more Q&A pairs, while slightly questionable, is neither controvertial nor a big issue. (if this was substantially large, OAI would already know from the API bills).

sdesol 2y ago
Did you read the article? The amount of data taken was enough to trip wires. Microsoft’s security researchers in the fall observed individuals they believe may be linked to DeepSeek exfiltrating a large amount of data using the OpenAI application programming interface, or API.
- snovv_crash 2y ago
  Exfiltrate is a very strong word to use when they paid for the data just like OpenAI and Microsoft wanted them to.
  - sdesol 2y ago
    Well, it looks like the ball is in the politicians' court right now, and who knows where this will lead. I said it in another comment, but I hope others in China and around the world will start to use v3 to build better models and by the time any legislation comes into play, it would be too late.
- t2oi4h324jl234 2y ago
  As noted "exfiltration" doesn't say anything other than maybe that they broke the ToS. There's no Chain-of-Thought trace available in OpenAI; and so all this FuD about DeepSeek's technical achievement, which achieves this completely via RL, is for nought. Westerners have this annoying habbit of framing their irrational hate for other groups (typ. racial) as some sort of righteous/moral stand. I don't care for this non-sense since I'm not part of this game.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]