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I agree that comparing GPAs across different schools is weak. But I think standardized tests in general are only useful up to a point. Beyond measuring aptitud

by h34t 18y ago

I agree that comparing GPAs across different schools is weak. But I think standardized tests in general are only useful up to a point. Beyond measuring aptitude in subjects like math and science, schools should also take subjective criteria into account. Life is far too complex for any test-score to really measure potential for achievement. Other things to look at might be: - overcoming personal obstacles with courage and determination - creative occupations or pursuits; sports; drama; art - entrepreneurial projects, whether for- or non-profit These factors are so diverse that it will never be possible to standardize the way that they are ranked. Yet they are absolutely crucial to really understanding where a person is at. The "cost" of this is that students "won't know how to prepare". Well, perhaps youth will need to be creative and actually think about how they might set themselves apart from their peers.

patio11 18y ago
Students know how to prepare for "holistic criteria": put on an act during their four years of high school which is intellectually flattering to a certain liberal academic mindset. Go to any high expectations high school in your state and attend a National Honor Society (Leadership AND Community Service (TM)) and ask them why they are there and what they think of the society. Heck, I've helped Japanese students game the American systems, too. I read one essay by a trilingual student about how she was very challenged in a murderously difficult curriculum but persevered out of her driving determination to become a med school student. And you know how that essay would have been read? "Smart Asian. yawn Find me someone with a hook." I told her to replace it with a woe-is-me story about the experience of Koreans in Japan. She looked at me like I was crazy. "But I thought that America didn't really discriminate against Koreans?" "Yeah, that's just the point. Its because America doesn't discriminate against you that $IVY is going to." "That makes no sense." "Believe me, I agree with you 100%. If you want to get judged for admissions without regard to your Korean ancestry, try applying to a Japanese school." We were both silent for a moment. (The WTFness of that situation soured me more on American college admissions than I already naturally was.) "But anyhow. Yeah. Sob stories of racial discrimination play REALLY well with $IVY. Ever been called an ethnic slur?" "Yeah, a couple of times." "PERFECT. Write how that never stopped you."
- h34t 18y ago
  Let's be cynical and assume it's impossible to avoid students 'gaming' the system. What's the better game, the one that keeps students shunted in book-studies for 10 years, or one that prods them to take an active role in the community, get involved in extra-curricular activities, entrepreneurial endeavors, etc.? (even if for the 'wrong reasons')
  - patio11 18y ago
    I can find the societal value-add from 10 years of book studies pretty freaking easily. Can you identify the societal value-add from my rewrite of that girl's essay? Ethnic minorities at Japanese high schools graduate literate and capable of doing calculus. Ethnic minorities at American high schools are done a tremendous disservice. Oh, heck, let's strip that of the euphemism -- black and Hispanic students at American high schools are done a tremendous disservice. (Use of the passive voice should not imply that that disservice is wholly the fault of external actors.) Rather than acknowledging this painful fact, and seeking to improve it, we cover it by emphasizing "holistic evaluation" where we hold them to scandalously lower standards and then declare success because they are admitted into college. Where they wash out in scandalously high numbers. And schools protect those numbers with more diligence than the CIA protects its list of operatives because the public can't be allowed to know the strength of the preferences regime or the extent of the utter failure at education occurring in some schools. KHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAN. OK, I feel better now.
    - h34t 18y ago
      Objective tests for math and science are a baseline requirement; I wasn't arguing otherwise. So we agree on the value of that. But I think we need to go further than only measuring people based on these academic standards. If you look at my original list of activities (which included the idea of overcoming a personal challenge), a lot of them are not as easily faked as with your rewrite. Moreover, references can be required. I took on a variety of extra roles in high school because I wanted to be well-rounded. I admit that part of my motivation was to improve my resume, but if that's what it took to get me out there, I'm glad for it, because I learned a lot and grew as a person. In the particular case you mention, I'd think that there was a societal value-add from your rewrite of that girl's essay if you got her into a school where she will do better than whoever would have taken her place, had you not been involved.

by h34t 18y ago

patio11 18y ago

Students know how to prepare for "holistic criteria": put on an act during their four years of high school which is intellectually flattering to a certain liberal academic mindset. Go to any high expectations high school in your state and attend a National Honor Society (Leadership AND Community Service (TM)) and ask them why they are there and what they think of the society. Heck, I've helped Japanese students game the American systems, too. I read one essay by a trilingual student about how she was very challenged in a murderously difficult curriculum but persevered out of her driving determination to become a med school student. And you know how that essay would have been read? "Smart Asian. yawn Find me someone with a hook." I told her to replace it with a woe-is-me story about the experience of Koreans in Japan. She looked at me like I was crazy. "But I thought that America didn't really discriminate against Koreans?" "Yeah, that's just the point. Its because America doesn't discriminate against you that $IVY is going to." "That makes no sense." "Believe me, I agree with you 100%. If you want to get judged for admissions without regard to your Korean ancestry, try applying to a Japanese school." We were both silent for a moment. (The WTFness of that situation soured me more on American college admissions than I already naturally was.) "But anyhow. Yeah. Sob stories of racial discrimination play REALLY well with $IVY. Ever been called an ethnic slur?" "Yeah, a couple of times." "PERFECT. Write how that never stopped you."

h34t 18y ago
Let's be cynical and assume it's impossible to avoid students 'gaming' the system. What's the better game, the one that keeps students shunted in book-studies for 10 years, or one that prods them to take an active role in the community, get involved in extra-curricular activities, entrepreneurial endeavors, etc.? (even if for the 'wrong reasons')
- patio11 18y ago
  I can find the societal value-add from 10 years of book studies pretty freaking easily. Can you identify the societal value-add from my rewrite of that girl's essay? Ethnic minorities at Japanese high schools graduate literate and capable of doing calculus. Ethnic minorities at American high schools are done a tremendous disservice. Oh, heck, let's strip that of the euphemism -- black and Hispanic students at American high schools are done a tremendous disservice. (Use of the passive voice should not imply that that disservice is wholly the fault of external actors.) Rather than acknowledging this painful fact, and seeking to improve it, we cover it by emphasizing "holistic evaluation" where we hold them to scandalously lower standards and then declare success because they are admitted into college. Where they wash out in scandalously high numbers. And schools protect those numbers with more diligence than the CIA protects its list of operatives because the public can't be allowed to know the strength of the preferences regime or the extent of the utter failure at education occurring in some schools. KHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAN. OK, I feel better now.
  - h34t 18y ago
    Objective tests for math and science are a baseline requirement; I wasn't arguing otherwise. So we agree on the value of that. But I think we need to go further than only measuring people based on these academic standards. If you look at my original list of activities (which included the idea of overcoming a personal challenge), a lot of them are not as easily faked as with your rewrite. Moreover, references can be required. I took on a variety of extra roles in high school because I wanted to be well-rounded. I admit that part of my motivation was to improve my resume, but if that's what it took to get me out there, I'm glad for it, because I learned a lot and grew as a person. In the particular case you mention, I'd think that there was a societal value-add from your rewrite of that girl's essay if you got her into a school where she will do better than whoever would have taken her place, had you not been involved.