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The search turned up what police say is the murder weapon in the suspect’s home. ... Police believed the shooter looked like Tolbert because he had the same “bu

by mapt 2y ago

The search turned up what police say is the murder weapon in the suspect’s home. ... Police believed the shooter looked like Tolbert because he had the same “build, hair style, clothing and walking characteristics,” So what I'm getting is... He was a young black man. He also did not indicate that the facial recognition report returned several photos of people other than Tolbert. The affidavit simply says the fusion center matched Tolbert to “the unidentified male suspect, based on recovered surveillance video.” Maybe it returned every single black male in the neighborhood and police just picked who they wanted; This is crucially relevant information. Similar problem to K-9 units, the walking search warrant who will alarm on anybody the police want them to. I have to wonder whether the legal points would have been satisfied if they'd just taken the 'Parallel Construction' route and followed the man around until they noticed a turn signal was out, and then "recognized" him spontaneously from the video. Given that they're often permitted to do this, were they just too lazy to do it? Seriously wounded, Story walked the last mile to his home on School Street. His father found him dead in the bathtub the next day. The is the biggest indictment of Cleveland PD and the justice system in the entire story - you could choose to call emergency services or you could choose to risk bleeding out because of their reputation. He chose to die. The search turned up what police say is the murder weapon in the suspect’s home. Oh. They said that. No details provided. Oh. Well, that's all right then.

ttyprintk 2y ago
Story says Clearview returned 8 photos, 2 were Tolbert. Evidence connects Tolbert’s home and driveway to the killer. Why was Clearview part of the warrant at all?
- Cthulhu_ 2y ago
  Clearview wasn't mentioned in the affidavit used to get the search warrant, according to the article: > Legg’s affidavit did not disclose that police used facial recognition as part of their identification. > The affidavit simply says the fusion center matched Tolbert to “the unidentified male suspect, based on recovered surveillance video.” (I had to look up what a "fusion center" is, it's a cooperation between different agencies: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fusion_center https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fusion_center)
csomar 2y ago
> The search turned up what police say is the murder weapon in the suspect’s home. My understanding is that they connected the weapon to the murder and thus got the criminal. The problem, from my understanding, is that the "connection" was illegal and as a result they have to remove the evidence (the gun). Without that, they have no case.
- aqme28 2y ago
  That's a misunderstanding then. They found a weapon and are claiming a connection, but you should not believe a connection just because the police claim it.
  - csomar 2y ago
    From the article: > The search turned up what police say is the murder weapon in the suspect’s home. You can't just pull up a weapon from the suspect home and call it a "murder weapon". They has at least to be some connection especially that everyone and his dog has a weapon in America.
    - llamaimperative 2y ago
      Sure you can. It’s called just making shit up. Police do it all the time, that’s what the article is about.
      - bombcar 2y ago
        More importantly, and most people don't realize it, but the police normally find enough evidence to get the suspect to admit and take a plea. So much of the time they don't need to get evidence to convince a jury, they just need to get the suspect to believe they have enough evidence to convince a jury. This all "works" because in some large percentage of murder cases, everyone knows who did it, because the "tv show unexplained unexpected murder by someone random of someone they don't even know" is rare.
    - aqme28 2y ago
absolutelastone 2y ago
So they racially profiled him by only considering characteristics which excluded race? Article appears to say the cops started with video of both the murder and a guy at a nearby convenience store that looked like the murderer--according to humans. AI was used to narrow down a short list of people who looked like the guy in the latter video. Cops then decided if any indeed did look like him, and also lived in the right area to appear on those surveillance videos. Not sure if that should be enough, but the use of AI doesn't really seem critical.
themaninthedark 2y ago
>>“build ... walking characteristics,” >So what I'm getting is... He was a young black man. Gait analysis is a thing. >hair style, clothing If the person had dreads and a hoodey on should they be looking for a guy with short cropped hair wearing a suit? >Maybe it returned every single black male in the neighborhood and police just picked who they wanted; This is crucially relevant information. >>The fusion center ran an AI-powered facial recognition search through Clearview AI and emailed its findings to Cleveland police, according to the documents. >>That AI report turned up eight photos, two of which were pictures of Tolbert. *Edit added:>>He also did not indicate that the facial recognition report returned several photos of people other than Tolbert. Please don't tilt at windmills, the police did a bad thing by not using approved tools and methods to conduct their analysis. You don't need to turn this into something more than what it is. >>Seriously wounded, Story walked the last mile to his home on School Street. >>His father found him dead in the bathtub the next day. >The is the biggest indictment of Cleveland PD and the justice system in the entire story - you could choose to call emergency services or you could choose to risk bleeding out because of their reputation. He chose to die. Or you know, the snitches get stitches culture. Or perhaps once you go into shock and loose too much blood you stop making rational decisions. >>The search turned up what police say is the murder weapon in the suspect’s home. >Oh. They said that. No details provided. Oh. Well, that's all right then. What proof do you need? I understand you don't want to take them at their word but it's not like the police are going to release the full forensic analysis before there is a trial. In 2020, the Cleveland PD was noted to have 67% of their officers as white while the makeup of the area is 50% black, however it should also be noted that 60% of their leadership; Chief and Deputy Chiefs are black https://www.wkyc.com/article/news/local/cleveland/a-detailed-racial-makeup-of-clevelands-police-force/95-ec21850b-2938-49fc-bd80-d97bc2c28d5a https://www.wkyc.com/article/news/local/cleveland/a-detailed...
- gamblor956 2y ago
  Gait analysis is a thing. Gait analysis is about as accurate as bite analysis, which the FBI has concluded is less accurate than just flipping a coin. And gait analysis is actually less useful than bite analysis, since a person's gait will change based on circumstances: shoes, clothing, ground, weather, etc. If the person had dreads and a hoodey on should they be looking for a guy with short cropped hair wearing a suit? No, the issue is that they only looked at the first guy that their limited facial match search turned up. What proof do you need? I understand you don't want to take them at their word but it's not like the police are going to release the full forensic analysis before there is a trial. It's actually quite common for police to release some of the basic forensic details about the crime before the trial, like whether or not the suspect's fingerprints were found on the weapon, especially in cases where the coverage centers around whether they have the right person.
garrettgarcia 2y ago
> The is the biggest indictment of Cleveland PD and the justice system in the entire story - you could choose to call emergency services or you could choose to risk bleeding out because of their reputation. He chose to die. Oh come on, this sounds absurd. No one is going to commit suicide because the city's EMS has a bad reputation. He was probably in shock and had just had his phone stolen so couldn't call anyone.

by mapt 2y ago

ttyprintk 2y ago

Story says Clearview returned 8 photos, 2 were Tolbert. Evidence connects Tolbert’s home and driveway to the killer. Why was Clearview part of the warrant at all?

Cthulhu_ 2y ago
Clearview wasn't mentioned in the affidavit used to get the search warrant, according to the article: > Legg’s affidavit did not disclose that police used facial recognition as part of their identification. > The affidavit simply says the fusion center matched Tolbert to “the unidentified male suspect, based on recovered surveillance video.” (I had to look up what a "fusion center" is, it's a cooperation between different agencies: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fusion_center https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fusion_center)

csomar 2y ago

> The search turned up what police say is the murder weapon in the suspect’s home. My understanding is that they connected the weapon to the murder and thus got the criminal. The problem, from my understanding, is that the "connection" was illegal and as a result they have to remove the evidence (the gun). Without that, they have no case.

aqme28 2y ago
That's a misunderstanding then. They found a weapon and are claiming a connection, but you should not believe a connection just because the police claim it.
- csomar 2y ago
  From the article: > The search turned up what police say is the murder weapon in the suspect’s home. You can't just pull up a weapon from the suspect home and call it a "murder weapon". They has at least to be some connection especially that everyone and his dog has a weapon in America.
  - llamaimperative 2y ago
    Sure you can. It’s called just making shit up. Police do it all the time, that’s what the article is about.
    - bombcar 2y ago
      More importantly, and most people don't realize it, but the police normally find enough evidence to get the suspect to admit and take a plea. So much of the time they don't need to get evidence to convince a jury, they just need to get the suspect to believe they have enough evidence to convince a jury. This all "works" because in some large percentage of murder cases, everyone knows who did it, because the "tv show unexplained unexpected murder by someone random of someone they don't even know" is rare.
  - aqme28 2y ago

absolutelastone 2y ago

So they racially profiled him by only considering characteristics which excluded race? Article appears to say the cops started with video of both the murder and a guy at a nearby convenience store that looked like the murderer--according to humans. AI was used to narrow down a short list of people who looked like the guy in the latter video. Cops then decided if any indeed did look like him, and also lived in the right area to appear on those surveillance videos. Not sure if that should be enough, but the use of AI doesn't really seem critical.

themaninthedark 2y ago

>>“build ... walking characteristics,” >So what I'm getting is... He was a young black man. Gait analysis is a thing. >hair style, clothing If the person had dreads and a hoodey on should they be looking for a guy with short cropped hair wearing a suit? >Maybe it returned every single black male in the neighborhood and police just picked who they wanted; This is crucially relevant information. >>The fusion center ran an AI-powered facial recognition search through Clearview AI and emailed its findings to Cleveland police, according to the documents. >>That AI report turned up eight photos, two of which were pictures of Tolbert. *Edit added:>>He also did not indicate that the facial recognition report returned several photos of people other than Tolbert. Please don't tilt at windmills, the police did a bad thing by not using approved tools and methods to conduct their analysis. You don't need to turn this into something more than what it is. >>Seriously wounded, Story walked the last mile to his home on School Street. >>His father found him dead in the bathtub the next day. >The is the biggest indictment of Cleveland PD and the justice system in the entire story - you could choose to call emergency services or you could choose to risk bleeding out because of their reputation. He chose to die. Or you know, the snitches get stitches culture. Or perhaps once you go into shock and loose too much blood you stop making rational decisions. >>The search turned up what police say is the murder weapon in the suspect’s home. >Oh. They said that. No details provided. Oh. Well, that's all right then. What proof do you need? I understand you don't want to take them at their word but it's not like the police are going to release the full forensic analysis before there is a trial. In 2020, the Cleveland PD was noted to have 67% of their officers as white while the makeup of the area is 50% black, however it should also be noted that 60% of their leadership; Chief and Deputy Chiefs are black https://www.wkyc.com/article/news/local/cleveland/a-detailed-racial-makeup-of-clevelands-police-force/95-ec21850b-2938-49fc-bd80-d97bc2c28d5a https://www.wkyc.com/article/news/local/cleveland/a-detailed...

gamblor956 2y ago
Gait analysis is a thing. Gait analysis is about as accurate as bite analysis, which the FBI has concluded is less accurate than just flipping a coin. And gait analysis is actually less useful than bite analysis, since a person's gait will change based on circumstances: shoes, clothing, ground, weather, etc. If the person had dreads and a hoodey on should they be looking for a guy with short cropped hair wearing a suit? No, the issue is that they only looked at the first guy that their limited facial match search turned up. What proof do you need? I understand you don't want to take them at their word but it's not like the police are going to release the full forensic analysis before there is a trial. It's actually quite common for police to release some of the basic forensic details about the crime before the trial, like whether or not the suspect's fingerprints were found on the weapon, especially in cases where the coverage centers around whether they have the right person.

garrettgarcia 2y ago

> The is the biggest indictment of Cleveland PD and the justice system in the entire story - you could choose to call emergency services or you could choose to risk bleeding out because of their reputation. He chose to die. Oh come on, this sounds absurd. No one is going to commit suicide because the city's EMS has a bad reputation. He was probably in shock and had just had his phone stolen so couldn't call anyone.