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As someone who lived most of my life under authoritarianism, this rings so many alarms. Pressing civil servants and government workers to vote the way you need

As someone who lived most of my life under authoritarianism, this rings so many alarms. Pressing civil servants and government workers to vote the way you need is basically the first trick in the dictator's manual.

JumpCrisscross 2y ago
> Pressing civil servants and government workers to vote the way you need is basically the first trick in the dictator's manual I'm blown away this isn't illegal.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- pjc50 2y ago
  It probably is, but - guess what - they stacked the Supreme Court, which determines what is and isn't illegal. Same deal as in Poland.
  - xor-eax-eax 2y ago
    America is over. It's a kabuki theater charade pantomiming the outlines that were once a representative republic.
    - Gud 2y ago
      *USA. Many countries in America are doing pretty well. Always seemed to me that the federal state has too much power.
    - scoofy 2y ago
      I don’t think it’s over, we’ve just hit the end of post war prosperity, and we are shifting our parties’ respective structures. The idea that we’ve literally never elected any president younger than a boomer is telling. The party is facing an intergenerational crisis, and but both parties are captured by one generation. If the electorate realigns or one party begins to concern itself with the struggles of the 80’s and 90’s, things will go back to normal. This is a series of repudiations, not an embrace of fascism.
      - locopati 2y ago
        You don't think targeting trans folks and immigrants with unconstitutional executive orders isn't an embrace of fascism?
        scoofy 2y ago
        I'm a liberal democrat. I'm just going to be up front about that. I think the left has made some real tactical errors in their policy, and it's upsetting people. Most people just want to live their lives and are fine with others living theirs. On the trans topic, I obviously think trans folks should be able to live their lives, and I think the nonsense about bathrooms is ridiculous. The solution is obviously just not segregating bathrooms by sex. Most of the hostility here has to do with sport. Where I think the left has fumbled this is not taking the argument for trans folks seriously enough. Gender is a social construct, sex is not... but we don't segregate our sports because of gender differences (that it's somehow icky to have boys touching girls), we segregate our sports because sex differences means biologically female folks are at a natural disadvantage. If we on the left actually took this argument seriously, we should be arguing for trans women competing in (biologically) male sport, because the point of gender being a social construct means we shouldn't see this as a problem. Same for trans men competing in (biologically) female sport. That we conflate them is an unforced error and honestly undermines the entire argument that trans solidarity is based on (an argument that I generally support). The conflations continue when we are discussing "immigrants." I've long held that I have no idea why the American left seems totally fine with ignoring the fact that people are overstaying their visas. I'm pretty close to an open borders guy, so I very obviously hate our immigration policy. However, that doesn't mean we should just ignore laws we don't like. We fight to change them. If we're allowed to just ignore perfectly reasonable laws like visa limitations, then there's no reason the right can't start ignoring background checks for gun purchases, or prosecutions for civil rights violations of, say, trans folks. Ignoring laws we don't like breaks the "faithfully execute" oath that executives generally take... it's also wildly undemocratic. Overstaying a visa is not something we should be exercising civil disobedience over. It has nothing to do with asylum seekers or refugees. It's just people ignoring the perfectly legitimate -- if onerous -- rules for visiting. If I want to live in France, it would be ridiculous to suggest that I should just go their on vacation and then stay. Again, we elected a fascist, I'm not denying that, but the main complaints I've heard from the right that have led here aren't fascist arguments. They all seem like legitimate complaints about the left, complains I generally disagree with or are low priorities for me, but legitimate. When I start hearing actual fascist desires from the electorate, like eliminating opposition parties, then I'll start freaking out. That's not to say it's not bad, it is, my point is only that the previous three cycles look much more like repudiation results -- because the US is facing financial headwinds and an awkwardly divided electorate -- and the coalitions are shifting.
  - sebazzz 2y ago
    Poland court change got partially reverted. The US just has an incredibly weak implementation of democracy.
pavlov 2y ago
And the point isn’t that they should actually vote a particular way. The point is that they should start feeling that it’s inconceivable to become a whistleblower, regardless of what they see on the job, because the implied punishment is so high.
- Terr_ 2y ago
  Also, the authority forces individuals into acts that bind them tighter to the regime while isolating them from other options. Ex: "Bob wants to join the resistance. He says he was lying about the loyalty oath the oppressors." "I dunno, even if Bob was always lying about that, it still makes him the kind of person who would deceive people in order to keep his job, so I'm not sure we can trust him either."
lazide 2y ago
this is what is setting off alarms?!?
- rsynnott 2y ago
  I mean obviously a lot of stuff should be, but this is a very bad sign; it's very much something you tend to see in democracies that go dictatorship.
  - lazide 2y ago
    My point is that it’s saying ‘hey maybe the house is at risk of a fire’ because they smell smoke - in the middle of the house burning down around them. Why do you think Trump fired almost everyone at the national security council already?
    - drewbug01 2y ago
      I can’t remember the exact, pithy phrasing - but there’s a sentiment expressed sometimes in activist work that I find helpful: “We wish you were with us before, but we are so happy you’re here now - there’s much work to do.” A meditation, perhaps - shared because you will likely encounter this situation often over the coming years and maybe it will help you as it helped me.
      - lazide 2y ago
        What does that have to do with my comment? You realize that the current mess is a reactionary response to activists, right?
    - happytoexplain 2y ago
      Analogies are weak. We should discuss and express concern for everything that happens, and not give up part way through and cease highlighting/flagging anything at all, simply because of repetition, or the vague emotion of "you should have known already". The parent did know. Everybody did know. It's irrelevant to the specific topic. I.e. the genre of negative response you've given is distracting, accomplishes nothing helpful, and, sadly, is very common.
prasadjoglekar 2y ago
I read the article and learned something new. Non political (aka career) Members of the NSC are deputized from their parent agencies - FBI, DOJ etc. Those that are removed return to their parent agency to continue line work. And these are not some line DMV workers. They are high officials. It's not nearly as alarming as the headline makes it sound. I think it's fair for a new elected political leadership to expect high officials to be aligned with the policies they were voted in on.
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago
  > It's not nearly as alarming as the headline makes it sound It is from a national security perspective. A body borne out of WWII has been rendered into a partisan shell [1]. That's a lot of institutional knowledge walking out the doors. We started dismantling the spoils system in the 19th century and, other than in Chicago, had largely eradicated it by the nuclear era [2]. It's wild to think that a nuclear superpower's national security advisory board is no longer going to be merit based. (From a domestic political perspective I agree it's being blown out of proportion.) [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_National_Security_Council https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_National_Securit... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spoils_system#Reform https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spoils_system#Reform
  - 13_9_7_7_5_18 2y ago
    [dead]
- gatlin 2y ago
  I don't have much of anything in common with the incoming admin but even I can see what you're saying is true. This is a special privilege, not a job, that is being conditioned. If everyone keeps crying wolf we won't be as alert when something fascist does happen.
belter 2y ago
Wait until they ask all government projects to rename git branches from main to master.... https://youtu.be/P2PIco48G4k https://youtu.be/P2PIco48G4k

JumpCrisscross 2y ago

> Pressing civil servants and government workers to vote the way you need is basically the first trick in the dictator's manual I'm blown away this isn't illegal.

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
pjc50 2y ago
It probably is, but - guess what - they stacked the Supreme Court, which determines what is and isn't illegal. Same deal as in Poland.
- xor-eax-eax 2y ago
  America is over. It's a kabuki theater charade pantomiming the outlines that were once a representative republic.
  - Gud 2y ago
    *USA. Many countries in America are doing pretty well. Always seemed to me that the federal state has too much power.
  - scoofy 2y ago
    I don’t think it’s over, we’ve just hit the end of post war prosperity, and we are shifting our parties’ respective structures. The idea that we’ve literally never elected any president younger than a boomer is telling. The party is facing an intergenerational crisis, and but both parties are captured by one generation. If the electorate realigns or one party begins to concern itself with the struggles of the 80’s and 90’s, things will go back to normal. This is a series of repudiations, not an embrace of fascism.
    - locopati 2y ago
      You don't think targeting trans folks and immigrants with unconstitutional executive orders isn't an embrace of fascism?
      - scoofy 2y ago
        I'm a liberal democrat. I'm just going to be up front about that. I think the left has made some real tactical errors in their policy, and it's upsetting people. Most people just want to live their lives and are fine with others living theirs. On the trans topic, I obviously think trans folks should be able to live their lives, and I think the nonsense about bathrooms is ridiculous. The solution is obviously just not segregating bathrooms by sex. Most of the hostility here has to do with sport. Where I think the left has fumbled this is not taking the argument for trans folks seriously enough. Gender is a social construct, sex is not... but we don't segregate our sports because of gender differences (that it's somehow icky to have boys touching girls), we segregate our sports because sex differences means biologically female folks are at a natural disadvantage. If we on the left actually took this argument seriously, we should be arguing for trans women competing in (biologically) male sport, because the point of gender being a social construct means we shouldn't see this as a problem. Same for trans men competing in (biologically) female sport. That we conflate them is an unforced error and honestly undermines the entire argument that trans solidarity is based on (an argument that I generally support). The conflations continue when we are discussing "immigrants." I've long held that I have no idea why the American left seems totally fine with ignoring the fact that people are overstaying their visas. I'm pretty close to an open borders guy, so I very obviously hate our immigration policy. However, that doesn't mean we should just ignore laws we don't like. We fight to change them. If we're allowed to just ignore perfectly reasonable laws like visa limitations, then there's no reason the right can't start ignoring background checks for gun purchases, or prosecutions for civil rights violations of, say, trans folks. Ignoring laws we don't like breaks the "faithfully execute" oath that executives generally take... it's also wildly undemocratic. Overstaying a visa is not something we should be exercising civil disobedience over. It has nothing to do with asylum seekers or refugees. It's just people ignoring the perfectly legitimate -- if onerous -- rules for visiting. If I want to live in France, it would be ridiculous to suggest that I should just go their on vacation and then stay. Again, we elected a fascist, I'm not denying that, but the main complaints I've heard from the right that have led here aren't fascist arguments. They all seem like legitimate complaints about the left, complains I generally disagree with or are low priorities for me, but legitimate. When I start hearing actual fascist desires from the electorate, like eliminating opposition parties, then I'll start freaking out. That's not to say it's not bad, it is, my point is only that the previous three cycles look much more like repudiation results -- because the US is facing financial headwinds and an awkwardly divided electorate -- and the coalitions are shifting.
- sebazzz 2y ago
  Poland court change got partially reverted. The US just has an incredibly weak implementation of democracy.

pavlov 2y ago

And the point isn’t that they should actually vote a particular way. The point is that they should start feeling that it’s inconceivable to become a whistleblower, regardless of what they see on the job, because the implied punishment is so high.

Terr_ 2y ago
Also, the authority forces individuals into acts that bind them tighter to the regime while isolating them from other options. Ex: "Bob wants to join the resistance. He says he was lying about the loyalty oath the oppressors." "I dunno, even if Bob was always lying about that, it still makes him the kind of person who would deceive people in order to keep his job, so I'm not sure we can trust him either."

lazide 2y ago

this is what is setting off alarms?!?

rsynnott 2y ago
I mean obviously a lot of stuff should be, but this is a very bad sign; it's very much something you tend to see in democracies that go dictatorship.
- lazide 2y ago
  My point is that it’s saying ‘hey maybe the house is at risk of a fire’ because they smell smoke - in the middle of the house burning down around them. Why do you think Trump fired almost everyone at the national security council already?
  - drewbug01 2y ago
    I can’t remember the exact, pithy phrasing - but there’s a sentiment expressed sometimes in activist work that I find helpful: “We wish you were with us before, but we are so happy you’re here now - there’s much work to do.” A meditation, perhaps - shared because you will likely encounter this situation often over the coming years and maybe it will help you as it helped me.
    - lazide 2y ago
      What does that have to do with my comment? You realize that the current mess is a reactionary response to activists, right?
  - happytoexplain 2y ago
    Analogies are weak. We should discuss and express concern for everything that happens, and not give up part way through and cease highlighting/flagging anything at all, simply because of repetition, or the vague emotion of "you should have known already". The parent did know. Everybody did know. It's irrelevant to the specific topic. I.e. the genre of negative response you've given is distracting, accomplishes nothing helpful, and, sadly, is very common.

prasadjoglekar 2y ago

I read the article and learned something new. Non political (aka career) Members of the NSC are deputized from their parent agencies - FBI, DOJ etc. Those that are removed return to their parent agency to continue line work. And these are not some line DMV workers. They are high officials. It's not nearly as alarming as the headline makes it sound. I think it's fair for a new elected political leadership to expect high officials to be aligned with the policies they were voted in on.

JumpCrisscross 2y ago
> It's not nearly as alarming as the headline makes it sound It is from a national security perspective. A body borne out of WWII has been rendered into a partisan shell [1]. That's a lot of institutional knowledge walking out the doors. We started dismantling the spoils system in the 19th century and, other than in Chicago, had largely eradicated it by the nuclear era [2]. It's wild to think that a nuclear superpower's national security advisory board is no longer going to be merit based. (From a domestic political perspective I agree it's being blown out of proportion.) [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_National_Security_Council https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_National_Securit... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spoils_system#Reform https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spoils_system#Reform
- 13_9_7_7_5_18 2y ago
  [dead]
gatlin 2y ago
I don't have much of anything in common with the incoming admin but even I can see what you're saying is true. This is a special privilege, not a job, that is being conditioned. If everyone keeps crying wolf we won't be as alert when something fascist does happen.

belter 2y ago

Wait until they ask all government projects to rename git branches from main to master.... https://youtu.be/P2PIco48G4k https://youtu.be/P2PIco48G4k