5 ms·

Why is cost your only concern? You don’t care at all what data the model was trained on? The motivations of the people who trained it? I mean maybe the importan

Why is cost your only concern? You don’t care at all what data the model was trained on? The motivations of the people who trained it? I mean maybe the importance of those things isn’t super high to you, but “don’t care”? How odd. Most Westerners I know would care…

lm28469 2y ago
Ah yes, because chat gpt is ethical AI lmao I'm European, seeing the clowns in charge of US tech companies I'm equally happy using Chinese tools, especially if they're open source. Stop twisting the debate as if it was "good US" vs "evil China", I have no horses in this race
- redcobra762 2y ago
  That’s fine, it’s just not what Westerners generally say, in my experience. Not that distaste for Chinese authoritarianism is inherently pro Western, just that Westerners I know tend to have an ideological issue with the substantially higher levels of censorship and oppression that takes place in China. It’s surprising to find people who genuinely don’t care about any of that, is all.
  - lm28469 2y ago
    "westerners" as if it was a monolithic block. I envy the simplicity of seeing life in such terms, China bad, US good, it must be very relaxing You don't have any concerns with the US government, the nepotism, the corruption, the conflict of interests, the insider trading, the massive concentration of wealth and power in tech, the insane lobbyism, PRISM, &c. It's surprising to find people who can so clearly see how China is bad but are completely oblivious to their own problems. It's not a football game, you don't have to chose a side and be a boot licker for eternity
    - redcobra762 2y ago
      I didn’t say China bad, I said Westerners typically find the levels of oppression and censorship present in China to be of concern. I actually gave zero of my own judgement on China at all. If you really think the Good vs. Evil narrative is wrong, why would you immediately go towards unrelated generic issues the West has? A neutral party would be more likely to acknowledge the problems with both sides, not reflexively try to change the subject! Then again you didn’t claim to be a neutral party, did you?
      - lm28469 2y ago
        Well yeah, both sides are fucked so I'll use the free tool and not the $200/month tool, it really isn't rocket science Even if deepseek is a chinese communist party evil trick what do they get ? My shitty code ? Big deal, at least I'm not down $200 a month, which is half of my rent
        lukan 2y ago
        If they would establish deepseek in their authorized version worldwide - it means they would establish their worldview worldwide. Students asking for help with homework will get the chinese approved version. Any housewife asking for recommendation who to vote and why, etc. But ... deepseek seems open source and the local version not restricted (as it likely was trained on ChatGPT in the first place). So I also refuse to refuse deepseek because it comes from china. I see it as more competition that hopefully will help with establishing good open source models in control of no single political organisation.
        lm28469 2y ago
        > Students asking for help with homework will get the chinese approved version. Any housewife asking for recommendation who to vote and why, etc. Well too bad for them, using a pencil to cut bread sucks too, that's why we don't do it. Meanwhile it's converting my json to xml and pissing code so I don't have to piss it myself
        2y ago
    - mistrial9 2y ago
      this directly blends people with a government.. Western people is not equal to the USA govt. Here in California, three decades of China human rights history is very clear to a lot of people. In fact, many Chinese speaking people on the Americas west coast, left China for specific reasons, too. Utilitarian money-oriented self-servers definitely have less "care" about these things? EU or UK or wherever
  - gooosle 2y ago
    It's funny you say that cause chatgpt, Gemini, etc have way more censorship built in than deepseek.
  - oefnak 2y ago
    No, the US used to be allies, but that was before Trump.
richardw 2y ago
I think there’s a real chance of changes in soft-power dynamics given recent events. When allies feel their partner and neighbour is behaving solely in its own interests, it changes trust relationships. Trump, tech, US-first focus with less interest in collaboration. TikTok. Ukraine and discussions around defence budgets. Reducing focus on EV’s. Tariffs. Iceland. Gulf of America. Immediate choices might be fear-based but it’s smart to look for other partners as trust erodes. An extreme side effect might be countries who felt safe under the US arms umbrella, needing to arm themselves. Are we absolutely sure that’s what we want? Does that include nukes?
exe34 2y ago
Chinese models are censored, while Western models are _aligned_. it's a very important distinction. personally I imagine in the future I'll use a mock UN panel of LLMs to advise me, and avoid any one nation/political party's influence, if I ever get to the point of delegating much of my thinking to the machine. Most westerners wouldn't want their land threatened by their allies either, but we don't live in a perfect world.
- premysl 2y ago
  Talk to R1 for a while, and you'll notice that it's both censored and aligned. I think the most free-minded large models might be the Groks, but just slightly, as they have different biases. In sum, there's strength in diversity.
- lm28469 2y ago
  > Western models are _aligned_ Aligned to what ? By who ? Did you vote for any of these people ? Did anyone ask you your opinion ? Can I see what topics are aligned ? Can I see how much they are aligned ? Does the alignment change depending on who's the current US president ?
  - exe34 2y ago
    that was my point, precisely.
- cratermoon 2y ago
  > a very important distinction. A distinction without a difference. As used by the Musk/Zuck/Bezos crowd, "aligned" is a weasel word for "parroting the TESCREAL world view"
  - exe34 2y ago
    Indeed.
troyvit 2y ago
> You don’t care at all what data the model was trained on? The motivations of the people who trained it? Working for a news org whose data was used without our consent to give ChatGPT a leg up, yeah I'd care a lot about it. The bottom line though is that nobody is innocent in that regard. Would a self-respecting organization go all in on Deepskeek R1 without a security audit and a ton of competitive testing against other models? I doubt it. Same way they shouldn't just give all their employees OnePlus or Huwei phones. I like how the Meta guy put it. This isn't China beating the US in AI, it's "open source" (however these guys define it) beating closed models. OpenAI broke its promise with the world, which anybody who compares their name with their product can tell you. If open models put a dent in their hegemony it's only good for the rest of the industry.
- redcobra762 2y ago
  So it genuinely does not matter to you how completely irrelevant US copyright law is to China, when using a Chinese LLM? That’s such a weirdly specific application of a moral principle, it’s hard to believe.
  - troyvit 2y ago
    It doesn't matter to you how completely irrelevant global copyright law is to OpenAI? [1] [1] https://futurism.com/the-byte/openai-copyrighted-material-parliament https://futurism.com/the-byte/openai-copyrighted-material-pa...
    - redcobra762 2y ago
      No, but then again I didn't claim copyright law mattered to me at all, you did.
      - troyvit 2y ago
        I also said: > The bottom line though is that nobody is innocent in that regard. In other words, that bird has flown and it isn't a valid reason to choose one model over another.
danielscrubs 2y ago
The big bad wolf is going to eat your lunch, you better increase your nationalism and taxes and stop global meritocracy? There was a psyop by the politicians just a month or so ago: ”Trump employees recruited people on the street by promising them an expensive restaurant meal, according to a Danish radio station”, but if you listen to most of media you will think greenlanders dream of becoming the next Mississippi with a median salary of $35,070 instead of current $43,664. Not saying it is bad, but US sure has a stronger self interest than most. Im just saying let the models output speak for themselves, and let the actions speak for themselves.

lm28469 2y ago

Ah yes, because chat gpt is ethical AI lmao I'm European, seeing the clowns in charge of US tech companies I'm equally happy using Chinese tools, especially if they're open source. Stop twisting the debate as if it was "good US" vs "evil China", I have no horses in this race

redcobra762 2y ago
That’s fine, it’s just not what Westerners generally say, in my experience. Not that distaste for Chinese authoritarianism is inherently pro Western, just that Westerners I know tend to have an ideological issue with the substantially higher levels of censorship and oppression that takes place in China. It’s surprising to find people who genuinely don’t care about any of that, is all.
- lm28469 2y ago
  "westerners" as if it was a monolithic block. I envy the simplicity of seeing life in such terms, China bad, US good, it must be very relaxing You don't have any concerns with the US government, the nepotism, the corruption, the conflict of interests, the insider trading, the massive concentration of wealth and power in tech, the insane lobbyism, PRISM, &c. It's surprising to find people who can so clearly see how China is bad but are completely oblivious to their own problems. It's not a football game, you don't have to chose a side and be a boot licker for eternity
  - redcobra762 2y ago
    I didn’t say China bad, I said Westerners typically find the levels of oppression and censorship present in China to be of concern. I actually gave zero of my own judgement on China at all. If you really think the Good vs. Evil narrative is wrong, why would you immediately go towards unrelated generic issues the West has? A neutral party would be more likely to acknowledge the problems with both sides, not reflexively try to change the subject! Then again you didn’t claim to be a neutral party, did you?
    - lm28469 2y ago
      Well yeah, both sides are fucked so I'll use the free tool and not the $200/month tool, it really isn't rocket science Even if deepseek is a chinese communist party evil trick what do they get ? My shitty code ? Big deal, at least I'm not down $200 a month, which is half of my rent
      - lukan 2y ago
        If they would establish deepseek in their authorized version worldwide - it means they would establish their worldview worldwide. Students asking for help with homework will get the chinese approved version. Any housewife asking for recommendation who to vote and why, etc. But ... deepseek seems open source and the local version not restricted (as it likely was trained on ChatGPT in the first place). So I also refuse to refuse deepseek because it comes from china. I see it as more competition that hopefully will help with establishing good open source models in control of no single political organisation.
        lm28469 2y ago
        > Students asking for help with homework will get the chinese approved version. Any housewife asking for recommendation who to vote and why, etc. Well too bad for them, using a pencil to cut bread sucks too, that's why we don't do it. Meanwhile it's converting my json to xml and pissing code so I don't have to piss it myself
        2y ago
  - mistrial9 2y ago
    this directly blends people with a government.. Western people is not equal to the USA govt. Here in California, three decades of China human rights history is very clear to a lot of people. In fact, many Chinese speaking people on the Americas west coast, left China for specific reasons, too. Utilitarian money-oriented self-servers definitely have less "care" about these things? EU or UK or wherever
- gooosle 2y ago
  It's funny you say that cause chatgpt, Gemini, etc have way more censorship built in than deepseek.
- oefnak 2y ago
  No, the US used to be allies, but that was before Trump.

richardw 2y ago

I think there’s a real chance of changes in soft-power dynamics given recent events. When allies feel their partner and neighbour is behaving solely in its own interests, it changes trust relationships. Trump, tech, US-first focus with less interest in collaboration. TikTok. Ukraine and discussions around defence budgets. Reducing focus on EV’s. Tariffs. Iceland. Gulf of America. Immediate choices might be fear-based but it’s smart to look for other partners as trust erodes. An extreme side effect might be countries who felt safe under the US arms umbrella, needing to arm themselves. Are we absolutely sure that’s what we want? Does that include nukes?

exe34 2y ago

Chinese models are censored, while Western models are _aligned_. it's a very important distinction. personally I imagine in the future I'll use a mock UN panel of LLMs to advise me, and avoid any one nation/political party's influence, if I ever get to the point of delegating much of my thinking to the machine. Most westerners wouldn't want their land threatened by their allies either, but we don't live in a perfect world.

premysl 2y ago
Talk to R1 for a while, and you'll notice that it's both censored and aligned. I think the most free-minded large models might be the Groks, but just slightly, as they have different biases. In sum, there's strength in diversity.
lm28469 2y ago
> Western models are _aligned_ Aligned to what ? By who ? Did you vote for any of these people ? Did anyone ask you your opinion ? Can I see what topics are aligned ? Can I see how much they are aligned ? Does the alignment change depending on who's the current US president ?
- exe34 2y ago
  that was my point, precisely.
cratermoon 2y ago
> a very important distinction. A distinction without a difference. As used by the Musk/Zuck/Bezos crowd, "aligned" is a weasel word for "parroting the TESCREAL world view"
- exe34 2y ago
  Indeed.

troyvit 2y ago

> You don’t care at all what data the model was trained on? The motivations of the people who trained it? Working for a news org whose data was used without our consent to give ChatGPT a leg up, yeah I'd care a lot about it. The bottom line though is that nobody is innocent in that regard. Would a self-respecting organization go all in on Deepskeek R1 without a security audit and a ton of competitive testing against other models? I doubt it. Same way they shouldn't just give all their employees OnePlus or Huwei phones. I like how the Meta guy put it. This isn't China beating the US in AI, it's "open source" (however these guys define it) beating closed models. OpenAI broke its promise with the world, which anybody who compares their name with their product can tell you. If open models put a dent in their hegemony it's only good for the rest of the industry.

redcobra762 2y ago
So it genuinely does not matter to you how completely irrelevant US copyright law is to China, when using a Chinese LLM? That’s such a weirdly specific application of a moral principle, it’s hard to believe.
- troyvit 2y ago
  It doesn't matter to you how completely irrelevant global copyright law is to OpenAI? [1] [1] https://futurism.com/the-byte/openai-copyrighted-material-parliament https://futurism.com/the-byte/openai-copyrighted-material-pa...
  - redcobra762 2y ago
    No, but then again I didn't claim copyright law mattered to me at all, you did.
    - troyvit 2y ago
      I also said: > The bottom line though is that nobody is innocent in that regard. In other words, that bird has flown and it isn't a valid reason to choose one model over another.

danielscrubs 2y ago

The big bad wolf is going to eat your lunch, you better increase your nationalism and taxes and stop global meritocracy? There was a psyop by the politicians just a month or so ago: ”Trump employees recruited people on the street by promising them an expensive restaurant meal, according to a Danish radio station”, but if you listen to most of media you will think greenlanders dream of becoming the next Mississippi with a median salary of $35,070 instead of current $43,664. Not saying it is bad, but US sure has a stronger self interest than most. Im just saying let the models output speak for themselves, and let the actions speak for themselves.