3 ms·

First, let me say it is always fun to see people having fun with hobbies like this. Cool to see them making headway and having fun! I'm curious what the speci

by taeric 2y ago

First, let me say it is always fun to see people having fun with hobbies like this. Cool to see them making headway and having fun! I'm curious what the specific pitch is on this device? I have, so far, avoided Garmin in the watch space, but I'm growing very short on justifications for that. Would love to hear what the general value add for other options is.

eab- 2y ago
The notifications aren't great, and the non-e-ink screen is a bit annoying. Also the low amount of physical buttons. But as someone who bought an OG Pebble and now has a Vivoactive 3, I think the fitness features are too nice to switch back fully to Pebble. Although I'll be very glad to see Pebble back!
- ClassyJacket 2y ago
  Which watch has an e-ink(/epaper) display? I can only think of Watchy. Pebble was LCD.
  - bitdivision 2y ago
    No, pebble was definitely e-ink. And I think the most recent ones had colour epaper. Edit: Sorry, looking further down I see that they say epaper, which is not the same: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42845508 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42845508 It looks like they're memory in pixel (MIP) displays, which are basically reflective LCDs I think.
    - jsheard 2y ago
      > It looks like they're memory in pixel (MIP) displays, which are basically reflective LCDs I think. Reflective LCDs with embedded memory, hence the name. Normal LCDs need to be refreshed continuously, but MIP LCDs remember the last frame and efficiently refresh themselves, so the CPU is free to go into deep sleep as long as the display is static.
      - Avamander 2y ago
        I'm pretty sure they were transreflective LCDs with an FPGA to handle the low-power refresh.
  - FuriouslyAdrift 2y ago
    Not a "normal" one, though... "black and white memory LCD using an ultra low-power "transflective LCD" manufactured by Sharp"
    - mikestew 2y ago
      "Normal" enough that many of Garmin's watches still use MIP LCD...which is what the Pebble used.
ramses0 2y ago
Garmin Fenix 7 (and potentially Garmin Fenix 8 Solar) are reasonably button-y and kindof work "right" from a pebble fan. The biggest miss for most smartwatches is "buttons", "battery life" and "sunlight-readable screen". Buttons work without sight, buttons work in the shower (next track, volume, scrolling a notification, declining a phone call, stopping a timer), buttons can be "memorized", you can navigate buttons while riding a bike, and "button-centric" means you're focused on _only the essential_ capabilities. Ok. Next/Prev. Cancel/Back. Long-Press for shortcuts or confirmations. The discipline of designing for small, focused, essential interactions is so much better (when done well) than attempting to stab react components shifting around on your wrist or swiping in random directions on a slow-to-respond screen. Charging "every other week" means I can go on a weeks vacation, charge the watch before going, and not need to worry about or bring another charger. Sunlight-readable (non-lighted, non-distracting) screen means I can glance down and see the current time [with no wrist movement], and I don't have a bright light turning on and off (most of the time). The biggest miss for the Fenix compared to Pebble is/was "The Timeline" from Pebble. On the home screen, you could basically scroll through your upcoming calendar events to kindof keep you on track. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XYZoWS0QxI8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XYZoWS0QxI8 The biggest opportunity for "Pebble2.0" is the hybrid button/scroll feature from Garmin Fenix. Fenix has an option to "pinch" opposing buttons for ~3 seconds to enable/disable the touch screen. Additionally, the touch screen can be used for (eg) scrolling a map around. To me, this is great as I _very rarely_ want to accidentally brush the screen (or have a toddler poking at it) and messing with things... but being able to "opt-in" to touch-screen under specific apps or circumstances is actually a really cool compromise! Needless to say, I'm an insta-buy for Pebble, and very hopeful (especially since the O.S. is open source?!?!) that they'll steward us functionality-based watch nerds in the right direction!
- 2OEH8eoCRo0 2y ago
  The Garmin Fenix 8 is $1,099
  - drawkward 2y ago
    And worth every penny. (I say this as a former pebble and then rebble user.)
seltzered_ 2y ago
I'm not sure you can put it in MBA language like 'specific pitch' or 'value add', you had to try it and see if it felt right for you. The watch had a pretty coherent ux flow for a non-touchscreen device, and could be easily used with gloves on without even looking at the watch in some scenarios (e.g. shortcutting to music controls). It later paired some unique animations to make things feel friendly and a bit quirky ( https://www.slashgear.com/pebble-hires-webos-designers-for-ui-evolution-18341704/ https://www.slashgear.com/pebble-hires-webos-designers-for-u... ). Also there was a pretty decent hobbyist/maker culture around the watch with the ideas of add-on accessories, etc. The challenge from a business standpoint mightve been needing to provide vc-backed startup returns without killing the culture that loved the product. I think they were trying to find a way to do a subscription for extra services.
- taeric 2y ago
  Fair that I do seem to be asking for MBA speak. Not my intent. For me, the big mental block is that I can't think of much I want to do from my watch. A readable screen is obviously nice. So is advanced battery life. But, if I'm going to be dipping into health tracking, it seems Garmin is the baseline there. The UX flow is one that has me somewhat intrigued. How often are you interacting with the device? And for what reasons?
  - ryukafalz 2y ago
    The big ones for me were/are media controls and seeing what's next on my calendar. Because of the physical buttons I can pause my music/skip songs/adjust volume without even looking at the screen. Bluetooth headphones often have media controls but in my experience they tend to be hard to use on wireless earbuds due to their size. Using my Pebble is much easier. No other smartwatch I've used has done this quite as well.
  - Timon3 2y ago
    I really enjoyed my Pebble for waking up in the morning (vibration feels much softer to me than a loud alarm) and media control, e.g. while showering. The display read well passively, and I only had to charge it every couple of days. The only experience that came close were hybrid smartwatches (analog, but with vibrations, 3 programmable buttons and the pointers could move to indicate apps). Longer battery life, but very closed off (can't sync alarms from external sources) and the phone bridge stopped working after some time.
tetromino_ 2y ago
I went through two Garmins. Both failed in under 2 years (random freezes, random reboots, eventually leading to bricking). Fitness tracking and GPS would activate by themselves at random times for no visible reason. Buttons sometimes wouldn't register. The proprietary charging cable was terribly designed - after a couple months, the springs inevitably fail and it starts losing contact with the watch, needing fiddling with the exact angle, blowing on the contacts, weighing down or attaching with scotch tape when charging for an extended time, etc.; basically, one learns to treat Garmin charging cables as a short-lived consumable. The software stack at least on Android is awful, and it's very hard to get your data out of it. Considering how much these thing are hyped, I gaslit myself into thinking my first watch was a rare lemon, which is why I replaced it with another Garmin; but I won't be fooled again.
- rconti 2y ago
  Their software is pretty bad but the hardware has been pretty bulletproof for me and I've certainly never had one randomly freeze or reboot in the decade+ I've been using them. These are forerunners though. I haven't used their "fancier" watches.
  - tetromino_ 2y ago
    I had the Instinct Solar. Not sure if it counts as "fancy", but it certainly was not reliable!
zem 2y ago
I've had a garmin for ~3 weeks now. amy #2 use for a watch (after telling the time, of course) is to read texts without pulling out my phone, and so far the garmin ux for that has been way worse than the pebble's. (not really used the fitness features much other than step tracking, which the pebble also did)

by taeric 2y ago

eab- 2y ago

The notifications aren't great, and the non-e-ink screen is a bit annoying. Also the low amount of physical buttons. But as someone who bought an OG Pebble and now has a Vivoactive 3, I think the fitness features are too nice to switch back fully to Pebble. Although I'll be very glad to see Pebble back!

ClassyJacket 2y ago
Which watch has an e-ink(/epaper) display? I can only think of Watchy. Pebble was LCD.
- bitdivision 2y ago
  No, pebble was definitely e-ink. And I think the most recent ones had colour epaper. Edit: Sorry, looking further down I see that they say epaper, which is not the same: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42845508 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42845508 It looks like they're memory in pixel (MIP) displays, which are basically reflective LCDs I think.
  - jsheard 2y ago
    > It looks like they're memory in pixel (MIP) displays, which are basically reflective LCDs I think. Reflective LCDs with embedded memory, hence the name. Normal LCDs need to be refreshed continuously, but MIP LCDs remember the last frame and efficiently refresh themselves, so the CPU is free to go into deep sleep as long as the display is static.
    - Avamander 2y ago
      I'm pretty sure they were transreflective LCDs with an FPGA to handle the low-power refresh.
- FuriouslyAdrift 2y ago
  Not a "normal" one, though... "black and white memory LCD using an ultra low-power "transflective LCD" manufactured by Sharp"
  - mikestew 2y ago
    "Normal" enough that many of Garmin's watches still use MIP LCD...which is what the Pebble used.

ramses0 2y ago

Garmin Fenix 7 (and potentially Garmin Fenix 8 Solar) are reasonably button-y and kindof work "right" from a pebble fan. The biggest miss for most smartwatches is "buttons", "battery life" and "sunlight-readable screen". Buttons work without sight, buttons work in the shower (next track, volume, scrolling a notification, declining a phone call, stopping a timer), buttons can be "memorized", you can navigate buttons while riding a bike, and "button-centric" means you're focused on _only the essential_ capabilities. Ok. Next/Prev. Cancel/Back. Long-Press for shortcuts or confirmations. The discipline of designing for small, focused, essential interactions is so much better (when done well) than attempting to stab react components shifting around on your wrist or swiping in random directions on a slow-to-respond screen. Charging "every other week" means I can go on a weeks vacation, charge the watch before going, and not need to worry about or bring another charger. Sunlight-readable (non-lighted, non-distracting) screen means I can glance down and see the current time [with no wrist movement], and I don't have a bright light turning on and off (most of the time). The biggest miss for the Fenix compared to Pebble is/was "The Timeline" from Pebble. On the home screen, you could basically scroll through your upcoming calendar events to kindof keep you on track. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XYZoWS0QxI8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XYZoWS0QxI8 The biggest opportunity for "Pebble2.0" is the hybrid button/scroll feature from Garmin Fenix. Fenix has an option to "pinch" opposing buttons for ~3 seconds to enable/disable the touch screen. Additionally, the touch screen can be used for (eg) scrolling a map around. To me, this is great as I _very rarely_ want to accidentally brush the screen (or have a toddler poking at it) and messing with things... but being able to "opt-in" to touch-screen under specific apps or circumstances is actually a really cool compromise! Needless to say, I'm an insta-buy for Pebble, and very hopeful (especially since the O.S. is open source?!?!) that they'll steward us functionality-based watch nerds in the right direction!

2OEH8eoCRo0 2y ago
The Garmin Fenix 8 is $1,099
- drawkward 2y ago
  And worth every penny. (I say this as a former pebble and then rebble user.)

seltzered_ 2y ago

I'm not sure you can put it in MBA language like 'specific pitch' or 'value add', you had to try it and see if it felt right for you. The watch had a pretty coherent ux flow for a non-touchscreen device, and could be easily used with gloves on without even looking at the watch in some scenarios (e.g. shortcutting to music controls). It later paired some unique animations to make things feel friendly and a bit quirky ( https://www.slashgear.com/pebble-hires-webos-designers-for-ui-evolution-18341704/ https://www.slashgear.com/pebble-hires-webos-designers-for-u... ). Also there was a pretty decent hobbyist/maker culture around the watch with the ideas of add-on accessories, etc. The challenge from a business standpoint mightve been needing to provide vc-backed startup returns without killing the culture that loved the product. I think they were trying to find a way to do a subscription for extra services.

taeric 2y ago
Fair that I do seem to be asking for MBA speak. Not my intent. For me, the big mental block is that I can't think of much I want to do from my watch. A readable screen is obviously nice. So is advanced battery life. But, if I'm going to be dipping into health tracking, it seems Garmin is the baseline there. The UX flow is one that has me somewhat intrigued. How often are you interacting with the device? And for what reasons?
- ryukafalz 2y ago
  The big ones for me were/are media controls and seeing what's next on my calendar. Because of the physical buttons I can pause my music/skip songs/adjust volume without even looking at the screen. Bluetooth headphones often have media controls but in my experience they tend to be hard to use on wireless earbuds due to their size. Using my Pebble is much easier. No other smartwatch I've used has done this quite as well.
- Timon3 2y ago
  I really enjoyed my Pebble for waking up in the morning (vibration feels much softer to me than a loud alarm) and media control, e.g. while showering. The display read well passively, and I only had to charge it every couple of days. The only experience that came close were hybrid smartwatches (analog, but with vibrations, 3 programmable buttons and the pointers could move to indicate apps). Longer battery life, but very closed off (can't sync alarms from external sources) and the phone bridge stopped working after some time.

tetromino_ 2y ago

I went through two Garmins. Both failed in under 2 years (random freezes, random reboots, eventually leading to bricking). Fitness tracking and GPS would activate by themselves at random times for no visible reason. Buttons sometimes wouldn't register. The proprietary charging cable was terribly designed - after a couple months, the springs inevitably fail and it starts losing contact with the watch, needing fiddling with the exact angle, blowing on the contacts, weighing down or attaching with scotch tape when charging for an extended time, etc.; basically, one learns to treat Garmin charging cables as a short-lived consumable. The software stack at least on Android is awful, and it's very hard to get your data out of it. Considering how much these thing are hyped, I gaslit myself into thinking my first watch was a rare lemon, which is why I replaced it with another Garmin; but I won't be fooled again.

rconti 2y ago
Their software is pretty bad but the hardware has been pretty bulletproof for me and I've certainly never had one randomly freeze or reboot in the decade+ I've been using them. These are forerunners though. I haven't used their "fancier" watches.
- tetromino_ 2y ago
  I had the Instinct Solar. Not sure if it counts as "fancy", but it certainly was not reliable!

zem 2y ago

I've had a garmin for ~3 weeks now. amy #2 use for a watch (after telling the time, of course) is to read texts without pulling out my phone, and so far the garmin ux for that has been way worse than the pebble's. (not really used the fitness features much other than step tracking, which the pebble also did)