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https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2014/jun/19/russia-secretly-working-with-environmentalists-to-oppose-fracking https://www.theguardian.com/environment/20

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2014/jun/19/russia-secretly-working-with-environmentalists-to-oppose-fracking https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2014/jun/19/russia-s... One example: > Nato chief, Anders Fogh Rasmussen, says Moscow mounting disinformation campaign to maintain reliance on Russian gas

croes 2y ago
Bad example, it's not like Russia made up the side effects of fracking. What about things like that? https://www.pbs.org/newshour/health/fda-bans-red-dye-no-3-from-foods-nearly-35-years-after-it-was-barred-from-cosmetics-because-of-potential-cancer-risk https://www.pbs.org/newshour/health/fda-bans-red-dye-no-3-fr...
- flanked-evergl 2y ago
  I never said all regulation is bad. In principle, it makes sense, in practice in the west it's effect is to transfer wealth and power to despotic regimes. Russia's active policy was to increase the west's energy dependence on it so that it's less likely that the west would oppose Russian imperialism. It worked. It's still happening, and it will continue to happen.
  - croes 2y ago
    >Regulations in Europe are written by people that you would not otherwise trust to write a shopping list. That doesn't sound like you think any regulation written by them is good. >Russia's active policy was to increase the west's energy dependence on it so that it's less likely that the west would oppose Russian imperialism. Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity. Russia's goals are just the same as Big Oil's. For instamce the Green Party in Germany tried to reduce that dependency but was hit by a massive campaing by the BILD newspaper. Its main investor KKR invests extensively in fossil fuels.
    - flanked-evergl 2y ago
      > That doesn't sound like you think any regulation written by them is good. Yes, current regulators in EU are acting as controlled opposition, maybe out of malice, perhaps out of incompetence, but it is what it is. > Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity. Russia is malicious, they may also be stupid, but they are malicious, and if they are stupid, they seem to still be outwitting Western Europe. https://www.thetimes.com/article/german-green-group-branded-a-russian-puppet-over-nord-stream-ii-gas-pipeline-nzd9p056q https://www.thetimes.com/article/german-green-group-branded-... > A German environmental foundation that has been given more than £17m by Gazprom, the Russian energy giant, has been accused of being a “puppet” funded by Moscow to circumvent American sanctions on the final stretch of a controversial pipeline carrying Russian natural gas to Germany.
      - croes 2y ago
        German politics is known for doing what environmental groups want. The stupidity part isn’t Russia but the lobbyists of the fossile energy companies who try to keep their profits from using oil and gas. Germany‘s dependency on Russian gas wasn’t because of Russian influence but because of industry demands for cheap gas.
        flanked-evergl 2y ago
        Nobody demands expensive gas. Not even in a socialist dictatorship. Germany is unique in that they shut down domestic energy production in favour of importing from Russia, and this is after multiple warnings from the west.
        croes 2y ago
        Gas is mainly used for heating and the industry, the shutdown of nuclear power plants had no effect on that. And it wasn’t about expensive gas but multiple suppliers. But Russia‘s offer was cheap enough to push the concerns aside. Sadly we will go back to that if the CDU or worse the AfD come to power. Partially thanks to Musk.

croes 2y ago

Bad example, it's not like Russia made up the side effects of fracking. What about things like that? https://www.pbs.org/newshour/health/fda-bans-red-dye-no-3-from-foods-nearly-35-years-after-it-was-barred-from-cosmetics-because-of-potential-cancer-risk https://www.pbs.org/newshour/health/fda-bans-red-dye-no-3-fr...

flanked-evergl 2y ago
I never said all regulation is bad. In principle, it makes sense, in practice in the west it's effect is to transfer wealth and power to despotic regimes. Russia's active policy was to increase the west's energy dependence on it so that it's less likely that the west would oppose Russian imperialism. It worked. It's still happening, and it will continue to happen.
- croes 2y ago
  >Regulations in Europe are written by people that you would not otherwise trust to write a shopping list. That doesn't sound like you think any regulation written by them is good. >Russia's active policy was to increase the west's energy dependence on it so that it's less likely that the west would oppose Russian imperialism. Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity. Russia's goals are just the same as Big Oil's. For instamce the Green Party in Germany tried to reduce that dependency but was hit by a massive campaing by the BILD newspaper. Its main investor KKR invests extensively in fossil fuels.
  - flanked-evergl 2y ago
    > That doesn't sound like you think any regulation written by them is good. Yes, current regulators in EU are acting as controlled opposition, maybe out of malice, perhaps out of incompetence, but it is what it is. > Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity. Russia is malicious, they may also be stupid, but they are malicious, and if they are stupid, they seem to still be outwitting Western Europe. https://www.thetimes.com/article/german-green-group-branded-a-russian-puppet-over-nord-stream-ii-gas-pipeline-nzd9p056q https://www.thetimes.com/article/german-green-group-branded-... > A German environmental foundation that has been given more than £17m by Gazprom, the Russian energy giant, has been accused of being a “puppet” funded by Moscow to circumvent American sanctions on the final stretch of a controversial pipeline carrying Russian natural gas to Germany.
    - croes 2y ago
      German politics is known for doing what environmental groups want. The stupidity part isn’t Russia but the lobbyists of the fossile energy companies who try to keep their profits from using oil and gas. Germany‘s dependency on Russian gas wasn’t because of Russian influence but because of industry demands for cheap gas.
      - flanked-evergl 2y ago
        Nobody demands expensive gas. Not even in a socialist dictatorship. Germany is unique in that they shut down domestic energy production in favour of importing from Russia, and this is after multiple warnings from the west.
        croes 2y ago
        Gas is mainly used for heating and the industry, the shutdown of nuclear power plants had no effect on that. And it wasn’t about expensive gas but multiple suppliers. But Russia‘s offer was cheap enough to push the concerns aside. Sadly we will go back to that if the CDU or worse the AfD come to power. Partially thanks to Musk.