5 ms·

Yes, I would. In fact, I'd use any boring technology [0]. Anything that's been around and battle tested. If I was at a startup trying to solve a business probl

by tra3 2y ago

Yes, I would. In fact, I'd use any boring technology [0]. Anything that's been around and battle tested. If I was at a startup trying to solve a business problem, the last thing I'd want to do is bruise my knuckles fighting with my tools. Rails provides an opinionated way to structure your codebase as well as many existing modules that just work. It's not exclusive in this space, but it's a safe bet. You can get any dev that's familiar with rails to ramp up pretty quick. If you rolled a custom web framework in a dialect of javascript you may have a more challenging time. 0: https://boringtechnology.club https://boringtechnology.club

muzani 2y ago
Is it boring technology? I'm actually reluctant to pick up Rails because it had always been sold by the Basecamp cult and Jason Fried gives off Musk vibes. Many opinionated frameworks are also less reliable because of the layers of abstraction, so I'd also associate opinionated framework = sexy and temporary. I've never actually used Rails in production, just did some tutorial, so I'm probably wrong about this.
- a-priori 2y ago
  The worst part about Rails is the 37signals people, in particular DHH. But the good news is that you can just ignore them and enjoy the framework, like I do.
  - anonfordays 2y ago
    >The worst part about Rails is the 37signals people, in particular DHH. Why? What is wrong with DHH?
    - bluerooibos 2y ago
      Some people love him, some hate him. It's also possible to appreciate the stuff he's done for software whilst not being in love with him as a person.
    - a-priori 2y ago
      The good news is that I can just say: go ahead and Google “DHH blog”, read his most recent few blog posts and form your own opinions. I’ve had a negative opinion of him for a good five years or so, but at least right now it’s easy to go read those and form your own strong opinion one way or another.
      - deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
- tra3 2y ago
  I listened to the latest Rails keynote, I never have before. I don't recall the exact details but it was a bit of a weird vibe for me. > Many opinionated frameworks are also less reliable because of the layers of abstraction, so I'd also associate opinionated framework = sexy and temporary. That's one of the persistent knocks against rails -- the layers of abstraction. I think that's fair, but it's a tradeoff. You either go along with it because it's advantageous or don't. Once you get familiar with the concepts and the theory of it the framework does what you expect, not a lot of surprises. I'll push back on "temporary" though. It's been around for 20 years. It's old, so by definition it's not sexy. Personally, I've built a number of apps in Rails that are still in production so it's a solid choice.
- crowcroft 2y ago
  I think this depends on the context. I would argue that opinionated frameworks are *more* reliable, with the caveat that you need to know, and agree with those opinions. I think of RoR, Laravel, Next.js, and Django etc. like I'm crowdsourcing my apps architecture so I can just worry about building out my business logic. Even if you don't choose a framework at some point you end up building your own framework and introducing new opinions anyway, what I often see in these homegrown frameworks are. 1. Somewhat conflicting opinions expressed across different layers of abstraction that you build into your app over time. 2. In not having an opinion you try to satisfy many ways of solving problems introducing more edge case problems and serious over engineering.
  - muzani 2y ago
    For context, I've been in mobile for 10 years and in general it's the opposite - frameworks are rigid, but the layer under it shifts a lot. These frameworks tend to collapse in an earthquake like manner after multiple updates. We usually support iOS up to 2-3 years old, that's how bad it is. The other approach is to build it on a platform that shifts with the changes, i.e. hybrid and web. But if you crack open the source of Cordova, you find all kinds of tangled, unmaintained, bad practice wiring and rewiring. I spent a few months trying to hack Cordova plugins and we decided to just scrap the entire code and build native; fully rewriting the app into a custom framework took 3 months. However, it sounds like tools like Rails are built on a very sturdy platform that doesn't introduce breaking changes every year? That's an angle I haven't considered.
    - conductr 2y ago
      Unlike mobile, you have control over the underlying OS and full stack. So usually you aren’t forced to keep pace with your frameworks changes even if they were breaking. So long as you watch and patch security issues you’re fine, it will work forever. But you’ll occasionally likely feel a desire to upgrade things, I find it’s usually out of Want versus Need because it’s already so mature you have time to watch big new versions mature a bit before you roll to it. You might skip a major version or two because of this. Even since very early on I think I had a v1.x app that I continued hacking and building on until eventually moving to v4.x which was maybe 10 years later
- kowfm 2y ago
  I definitely recommend using Ruby, and Rails. The Jason Fried and David Hansson Musk/Fascist vibes are real and are a problem. Most of the people in the Ruby community recognize that problem and are taking steps to mitigate that issue. Most of the core Rails committers don't work for 37 signals, and it's not really a thing made just by them. Definitely use Rails to start a new project. The real hero here is Ruby and the Ruby ecosystem. It's incredibly stable and mature, But also getting faster every year. About 20 years ago Ruby web frameworks agreed on an ad hoc server interface api, Rack, which is one of the secrets that has made Ruby incredibly stable. The package system, Ruby Gems, is really great. You can find a Gem for just about anything you could ever need or want. With mountains of Open Source projects and code to read to pick up patterns, or to see prior art to solve a unique problem you're encountering. Anyways, it's a really solid choice.
  - anonfordays 2y ago
    >The Jason Fried and David Hansson Musk/Fascist vibes are real and are a problem. What do you mean by this? Where have Jason Fried or David Hansson supported fascism? Your account is ten years old and this is the first comment you've ever made.
    - kowfm 2y ago
      It doesn't mean I'm not right. I mean that they give off Fascist vibes, and that it's a problem. Adoration for and support of fascist people and regimes are implicit support of fascism. Not explicit. Go read their blogs, I'm sure you'll find lots of examples.
      - wyclif 2y ago
        >I mean that they give off Fascist vibes, and that it's a problem But you've just repeated the accusation and said that you think it's a problem. You haven't provided proof of any actual fascism.
        riffraff 2y ago
- anonfordays 2y ago
  >I'm actually reluctant to pick up Rails because it had always been sold by the Basecamp cult and Jason Fried gives off Musk vibes. Why? What "Musk vibes" have they given off?
  - ksec 2y ago
    If you are on certain political spectrum, then opposite political spectrum would certainly gives similar vibes as that spectrum's prominent figure.
    - muzani 2y ago
      I'm on the pro-VC, anti-bootstrap spectrum and so is Elon Musk. American political spectrum of right vs left, authorarian vs libertarian makes little sense to me. My political compass tends to be BRICS vs G7, religious vs secular. If you're saying they're both G7-secular, I guess that makes sense too. edit: Also I was not even aware of Musk and the fascist thing before posting the comment, and I can see how it may have been interpreted differently now, lol.
  - muzani 2y ago
    Success because of A and attributing it to B. There's a bit of megalomania too. He has a beef against VC funding. He lost 1/3 of staff once when he implemented a policy of no personal opinions at Basecamp. He is often shared because of his unpopular opinions and his successes are used to fortify those opinions. I'm not saying Fried or Musk are wrong, and they both have brilliant insights at times. If Musk was crazy and wrong all the time, he wouldn't be a brand name. But both of them also appeal to susceptible people who seem to think that a few good opinions make them good all the time. Basecamp isn't even a good tool, it's a pretty average one, yet prettier than Jira. But it's down this funnel of people who will buy whatever Fried and DHH sell them. And what I'm getting at is whether Rails is one of those things that is average but prettier than Node?
    - wyclif 2y ago
      >he implemented a policy of no personal opinions at Basecamp Except he didn't do that, what he implemented was not making personal politics a part of Basecamp's workplace culture, which is a much more moderate thing than what you're accusing him of here. You might not be aware of this, but it's possible to have a personal opinion about something and not bring societal and political discussions to the company account or forum. Here's the text of the new policy: https://world.hey.com/jason/changes-at-basecamp-7f32afc5 https://world.hey.com/jason/changes-at-basecamp-7f32afc5 "People can take the conversations with willing co-workers to Signal, Whatsapp, or even a personal Basecamp account, but it can't happen where the work happens anymore." Again, this is not at all the same thing as "no personal opinions [allowed] at Basecamp."
- wyclif 2y ago
  >it had always been sold by the Basecamp cult and Jason Fried gives off Musk vibes. Not affiliated with either of those things, but what does this even mean? Basecamp is a business. Jason Fried is a businessman. Basecamp is a product developed by 37 Signals, a company Fried co-founded. How does any of that create "Musk vibes"? I'm seriously wondering what this is all about.
- jrochkind1 2y ago
  I use and love using rails, but the centrality of influence of the musk-vibes-camp is for me too the biggest downside. Yes in response to a sibling comment, the RailsWorld keynote was super weird culty vibe, agreed. But hey everything's got ups and downs. Rails is great for me to work in. Hopefully it will remain that way. There are other Rails maintainers who are not basecamp-related, some who say that dhh and basecamp's power over Rails is not as great as people think and it really is distributed maintainership and control, hopefully that is true enough and will remain so. i know what you mean about abstraction and flexibilty, but I think Rails mostly avoids that and is actually quite flexible. But I don't use the new hotwire JS stuff, that is one area where I share your concern. It's easy to use Rails without it, with the JS of your choice.
schappim 2y ago
Rails (and its ecosystem) is anything but boring with Turbo/Hotwire, StimulusJS, a shift away from queues using Redis to the database w/ Solid Queue, a reexamination of how SQLite can be used as a prod database (when tuned), and a new rich text editor on the way… Some of these are eyebrow raising and certainly not boring!
- mahmoudimus 2y ago
  Shifting to solid queue, backed by your rdbms, is more boring than using redis. Successfully deploying an app without anything but a database server is pretty powerful. Everything just works. I would say that's pretty boring :)
  - schappim 2y ago
    > Everything just works. I long to live in your world where this is the case! Unfortunately the migration from Sidekiq + Redis → Solid Queue has been anything but boring.
    - mahmoudimus 2y ago
      I started fresh from Rails 8, so maybe that's why I didn't deal w/ that migration problem. I'm sorry it was stressful :(
    - moorow 2y ago
      We're about to do this as well, but from resque. Got any tips to share?
      - schappim 2y ago
        TBH we backed out of it as we didn't need to make the change now.
        ksec 2y ago
        Would love to read about it if you have a write up of the problem you encountered.

by tra3 2y ago

muzani 2y ago

Is it boring technology? I'm actually reluctant to pick up Rails because it had always been sold by the Basecamp cult and Jason Fried gives off Musk vibes. Many opinionated frameworks are also less reliable because of the layers of abstraction, so I'd also associate opinionated framework = sexy and temporary. I've never actually used Rails in production, just did some tutorial, so I'm probably wrong about this.

a-priori 2y ago
The worst part about Rails is the 37signals people, in particular DHH. But the good news is that you can just ignore them and enjoy the framework, like I do.
- anonfordays 2y ago
  >The worst part about Rails is the 37signals people, in particular DHH. Why? What is wrong with DHH?
  - bluerooibos 2y ago
    Some people love him, some hate him. It's also possible to appreciate the stuff he's done for software whilst not being in love with him as a person.
  - a-priori 2y ago
    The good news is that I can just say: go ahead and Google “DHH blog”, read his most recent few blog posts and form your own opinions. I’ve had a negative opinion of him for a good five years or so, but at least right now it’s easy to go read those and form your own strong opinion one way or another.
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
tra3 2y ago
I listened to the latest Rails keynote, I never have before. I don't recall the exact details but it was a bit of a weird vibe for me. > Many opinionated frameworks are also less reliable because of the layers of abstraction, so I'd also associate opinionated framework = sexy and temporary. That's one of the persistent knocks against rails -- the layers of abstraction. I think that's fair, but it's a tradeoff. You either go along with it because it's advantageous or don't. Once you get familiar with the concepts and the theory of it the framework does what you expect, not a lot of surprises. I'll push back on "temporary" though. It's been around for 20 years. It's old, so by definition it's not sexy. Personally, I've built a number of apps in Rails that are still in production so it's a solid choice.
crowcroft 2y ago
I think this depends on the context. I would argue that opinionated frameworks are *more* reliable, with the caveat that you need to know, and agree with those opinions. I think of RoR, Laravel, Next.js, and Django etc. like I'm crowdsourcing my apps architecture so I can just worry about building out my business logic. Even if you don't choose a framework at some point you end up building your own framework and introducing new opinions anyway, what I often see in these homegrown frameworks are. 1. Somewhat conflicting opinions expressed across different layers of abstraction that you build into your app over time. 2. In not having an opinion you try to satisfy many ways of solving problems introducing more edge case problems and serious over engineering.
- muzani 2y ago
  For context, I've been in mobile for 10 years and in general it's the opposite - frameworks are rigid, but the layer under it shifts a lot. These frameworks tend to collapse in an earthquake like manner after multiple updates. We usually support iOS up to 2-3 years old, that's how bad it is. The other approach is to build it on a platform that shifts with the changes, i.e. hybrid and web. But if you crack open the source of Cordova, you find all kinds of tangled, unmaintained, bad practice wiring and rewiring. I spent a few months trying to hack Cordova plugins and we decided to just scrap the entire code and build native; fully rewriting the app into a custom framework took 3 months. However, it sounds like tools like Rails are built on a very sturdy platform that doesn't introduce breaking changes every year? That's an angle I haven't considered.
  - conductr 2y ago
    Unlike mobile, you have control over the underlying OS and full stack. So usually you aren’t forced to keep pace with your frameworks changes even if they were breaking. So long as you watch and patch security issues you’re fine, it will work forever. But you’ll occasionally likely feel a desire to upgrade things, I find it’s usually out of Want versus Need because it’s already so mature you have time to watch big new versions mature a bit before you roll to it. You might skip a major version or two because of this. Even since very early on I think I had a v1.x app that I continued hacking and building on until eventually moving to v4.x which was maybe 10 years later
kowfm 2y ago
I definitely recommend using Ruby, and Rails. The Jason Fried and David Hansson Musk/Fascist vibes are real and are a problem. Most of the people in the Ruby community recognize that problem and are taking steps to mitigate that issue. Most of the core Rails committers don't work for 37 signals, and it's not really a thing made just by them. Definitely use Rails to start a new project. The real hero here is Ruby and the Ruby ecosystem. It's incredibly stable and mature, But also getting faster every year. About 20 years ago Ruby web frameworks agreed on an ad hoc server interface api, Rack, which is one of the secrets that has made Ruby incredibly stable. The package system, Ruby Gems, is really great. You can find a Gem for just about anything you could ever need or want. With mountains of Open Source projects and code to read to pick up patterns, or to see prior art to solve a unique problem you're encountering. Anyways, it's a really solid choice.
- anonfordays 2y ago
  >The Jason Fried and David Hansson Musk/Fascist vibes are real and are a problem. What do you mean by this? Where have Jason Fried or David Hansson supported fascism? Your account is ten years old and this is the first comment you've ever made.
  - kowfm 2y ago
    It doesn't mean I'm not right. I mean that they give off Fascist vibes, and that it's a problem. Adoration for and support of fascist people and regimes are implicit support of fascism. Not explicit. Go read their blogs, I'm sure you'll find lots of examples.
    - wyclif 2y ago
      >I mean that they give off Fascist vibes, and that it's a problem But you've just repeated the accusation and said that you think it's a problem. You haven't provided proof of any actual fascism.
      - riffraff 2y ago
anonfordays 2y ago
>I'm actually reluctant to pick up Rails because it had always been sold by the Basecamp cult and Jason Fried gives off Musk vibes. Why? What "Musk vibes" have they given off?
- ksec 2y ago
  If you are on certain political spectrum, then opposite political spectrum would certainly gives similar vibes as that spectrum's prominent figure.
  - muzani 2y ago
    I'm on the pro-VC, anti-bootstrap spectrum and so is Elon Musk. American political spectrum of right vs left, authorarian vs libertarian makes little sense to me. My political compass tends to be BRICS vs G7, religious vs secular. If you're saying they're both G7-secular, I guess that makes sense too. edit: Also I was not even aware of Musk and the fascist thing before posting the comment, and I can see how it may have been interpreted differently now, lol.
- muzani 2y ago
  Success because of A and attributing it to B. There's a bit of megalomania too. He has a beef against VC funding. He lost 1/3 of staff once when he implemented a policy of no personal opinions at Basecamp. He is often shared because of his unpopular opinions and his successes are used to fortify those opinions. I'm not saying Fried or Musk are wrong, and they both have brilliant insights at times. If Musk was crazy and wrong all the time, he wouldn't be a brand name. But both of them also appeal to susceptible people who seem to think that a few good opinions make them good all the time. Basecamp isn't even a good tool, it's a pretty average one, yet prettier than Jira. But it's down this funnel of people who will buy whatever Fried and DHH sell them. And what I'm getting at is whether Rails is one of those things that is average but prettier than Node?
  - wyclif 2y ago
    >he implemented a policy of no personal opinions at Basecamp Except he didn't do that, what he implemented was not making personal politics a part of Basecamp's workplace culture, which is a much more moderate thing than what you're accusing him of here. You might not be aware of this, but it's possible to have a personal opinion about something and not bring societal and political discussions to the company account or forum. Here's the text of the new policy: https://world.hey.com/jason/changes-at-basecamp-7f32afc5 https://world.hey.com/jason/changes-at-basecamp-7f32afc5 "People can take the conversations with willing co-workers to Signal, Whatsapp, or even a personal Basecamp account, but it can't happen where the work happens anymore." Again, this is not at all the same thing as "no personal opinions [allowed] at Basecamp."
wyclif 2y ago
>it had always been sold by the Basecamp cult and Jason Fried gives off Musk vibes. Not affiliated with either of those things, but what does this even mean? Basecamp is a business. Jason Fried is a businessman. Basecamp is a product developed by 37 Signals, a company Fried co-founded. How does any of that create "Musk vibes"? I'm seriously wondering what this is all about.
jrochkind1 2y ago
I use and love using rails, but the centrality of influence of the musk-vibes-camp is for me too the biggest downside. Yes in response to a sibling comment, the RailsWorld keynote was super weird culty vibe, agreed. But hey everything's got ups and downs. Rails is great for me to work in. Hopefully it will remain that way. There are other Rails maintainers who are not basecamp-related, some who say that dhh and basecamp's power over Rails is not as great as people think and it really is distributed maintainership and control, hopefully that is true enough and will remain so. i know what you mean about abstraction and flexibilty, but I think Rails mostly avoids that and is actually quite flexible. But I don't use the new hotwire JS stuff, that is one area where I share your concern. It's easy to use Rails without it, with the JS of your choice.

schappim 2y ago

Rails (and its ecosystem) is anything but boring with Turbo/Hotwire, StimulusJS, a shift away from queues using Redis to the database w/ Solid Queue, a reexamination of how SQLite can be used as a prod database (when tuned), and a new rich text editor on the way… Some of these are eyebrow raising and certainly not boring!

mahmoudimus 2y ago
Shifting to solid queue, backed by your rdbms, is more boring than using redis. Successfully deploying an app without anything but a database server is pretty powerful. Everything just works. I would say that's pretty boring :)
- schappim 2y ago
  > Everything just works. I long to live in your world where this is the case! Unfortunately the migration from Sidekiq + Redis → Solid Queue has been anything but boring.
  - mahmoudimus 2y ago
    I started fresh from Rails 8, so maybe that's why I didn't deal w/ that migration problem. I'm sorry it was stressful :(
  - moorow 2y ago
    We're about to do this as well, but from resque. Got any tips to share?
    - schappim 2y ago
      TBH we backed out of it as we didn't need to make the change now.
      - ksec 2y ago
        Would love to read about it if you have a write up of the problem you encountered.