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It is always this holier than thou attitude of Software engineers towards DevOps that is annoying. Especially if it comes from ignorance. These days often DevO

It is always this holier than thou attitude of Software engineers towards DevOps that is annoying. Especially if it comes from ignorance. These days often DevOps is done by former Software Engineers rather than "old fashioned" Sys admins. Just because you are ignorant on how to use AKS efficiently, doesn't mean your alternative is better.

mugsie 2y ago
Yeah, DevOps was a culture not a job title, and then we let us software engineers in who just want to throw something into prod and go home on friday night, so they decided it was a task, and the lowest importance thing possible, but simultaniously, the devops/sre/prod eng teams needed to be perfect, because its prod. it is a wierd dichotomy I have seem, and it is getting worse. We let teams have access to argo manifiests, and helm charts, and even let them do custom in repo charts. not one team in the last year has actually gone and looked at k8s docs to figure out how to do basic shit, they just dump questions into channels, and soak up time from people explaining the basics of the system their software runs on.
sgarland 2y ago
> These days often DevOps is done by former Software Engineers rather than "old fashioned" Sys admins. Yes, and the world is a poorer place for it. Google’s SRE model works in part because they have _both_ Ops and SWE backgrounds. The thing about traditional Ops is, while it may not scale to Google levels, it does scale quite well to the level most companies need, _and_ along the way, it forces people to learn how computers and systems work to a modicum of depth. If you’re having to ssh into a box to see why a process is dying, you’re going to learn something about that process, systemd, etc. If you drag the dev along with you to fix it, now two people have learned cross-areas. If everything is in a container, and there’s an orchestrator silently replacing dying pods, that no longer needs to exist. To be clear, I _love_ K8s. I run it at home, and have used it professionally at multiple jobs. What I don’t like is how it (and every other abstraction) have made it such that “infra” people haven’t the slightest clue how infra actually operates, and if you sat them down in front of an empty, physical server, they’d have no idea how to bootstrap Linux on it.
- k8sToGo 2y ago
  That's a fair point I also observed.
codr7 2y ago
Nah, I'm delighted if someone wants to do it. Not as delighted by the fact that many companies seem to want developers to do devops as well, like when the code is compiling or something. It's not being taken seriously.

mugsie 2y ago

Yeah, DevOps was a culture not a job title, and then we let us software engineers in who just want to throw something into prod and go home on friday night, so they decided it was a task, and the lowest importance thing possible, but simultaniously, the devops/sre/prod eng teams needed to be perfect, because its prod. it is a wierd dichotomy I have seem, and it is getting worse. We let teams have access to argo manifiests, and helm charts, and even let them do custom in repo charts. not one team in the last year has actually gone and looked at k8s docs to figure out how to do basic shit, they just dump questions into channels, and soak up time from people explaining the basics of the system their software runs on.

sgarland 2y ago

> These days often DevOps is done by former Software Engineers rather than "old fashioned" Sys admins. Yes, and the world is a poorer place for it. Google’s SRE model works in part because they have _both_ Ops and SWE backgrounds. The thing about traditional Ops is, while it may not scale to Google levels, it does scale quite well to the level most companies need, _and_ along the way, it forces people to learn how computers and systems work to a modicum of depth. If you’re having to ssh into a box to see why a process is dying, you’re going to learn something about that process, systemd, etc. If you drag the dev along with you to fix it, now two people have learned cross-areas. If everything is in a container, and there’s an orchestrator silently replacing dying pods, that no longer needs to exist. To be clear, I _love_ K8s. I run it at home, and have used it professionally at multiple jobs. What I don’t like is how it (and every other abstraction) have made it such that “infra” people haven’t the slightest clue how infra actually operates, and if you sat them down in front of an empty, physical server, they’d have no idea how to bootstrap Linux on it.

k8sToGo 2y ago
That's a fair point I also observed.

codr7 2y ago

Nah, I'm delighted if someone wants to do it. Not as delighted by the fact that many companies seem to want developers to do devops as well, like when the code is compiling or something. It's not being taken seriously.