4 ms·

Wayland is just a protocol that is probably implemented over and over and each implementation might have issues. It's mostly likely the different implementation

Wayland is just a protocol that is probably implemented over and over and each implementation might have issues. It's mostly likely the different implementations having issues.

hirako2000 2y ago
Was Wayland not architected to be simpler to implement than the (antique) X11 protocol? Not arguing though, you are right it is just issues: Drivers, the Wayland implementations, how some plethora of apps and libraries have been battle tested then optimized, years over years, for X11. Not as much for Wayland display yet.
- KerrAvon 2y ago
  Architecture contributes, but all it takes to blow input latency is some inefficient code almost anywhere in the input or rendering pipeline. The Apple IIe didn’t really have very many layers between the keyboard and the CRT. Wayland might have an optimal architecture in theory for latency — I don’t know — and latency could still be ruined by not fully optimizing the other components in the stack.
- mrweasel 2y ago
  > Was Wayland not architected to be simpler to implement than the (antique) X11 protocol? I think it's safe to assume that it is actually simpler, given that we already have multiple Wayland implementations, but still basically just the one X11 server implementation. Can one or more of those implementations shave off one or two milliseconds overs the next 40 years... Probably yes.
  - somat 2y ago
    Sure, on linux all you really have is xorg, what used to be xfree86, but I have used xsgi, and there are X servers for windows, heck, I have even seen this amazing demo Xserver that ran on the web. footnote: there is something wrong with the commonly used web search engines and I am unable to find that X11 web demo, I think they are prioritizing recent content over good content. you would think with how interesting that web demo was it was it would show up right away. but I got nothing, so no links. Anyway it was a deep dive into the intricacies of X11 window painting and the author had ported a limited subset of an X server to javascript in order to provide a live demonstration of the topic. I will keep looking. Found it. https://magcius.github.io/xplain/article/x-basics.html https://magcius.github.io/xplain/article/x-basics.html
    - hirako2000 2y ago
      It's called a SEO driven content vs quality drive content. Unfortunately the engine has has poor sense of taste.
- GuB-42 2y ago
  Wayland is simpler because it does less. And among the things Wayland doesn't do and X does are things that people need. It means these things have to be implemented elsewhere. It is a common problem with these "simple" things. The problem is complex, and if you simplify one part, you are just pushing complexity elsewhere, you are not making it disappear. It is sometimes a good thing, but in the case of Wayland, it didn't go well.
  - freehorse 2y ago
    There is also the option to make complexity disappear by just convincing people that they should not want to do what they want to do. This was the kind of response to what I needed to do. Then I had to switch back to x11. In any case wayland is not bad if you only have pretty basic needs I guess, some basic things look easier to me there from a user perspective, and troubleshooting x11-related issues for a non-technical person is no fun either.
- dsp_person 2y ago
  I'm impressed how wlroots compiles in under 3 seconds for me

Wayland is just a protocol that is probably implemented over and over and each implementation might have issues. It's mostly likely the different implementations having issues.

hirako2000 2y ago

Was Wayland not architected to be simpler to implement than the (antique) X11 protocol? Not arguing though, you are right it is just issues: Drivers, the Wayland implementations, how some plethora of apps and libraries have been battle tested then optimized, years over years, for X11. Not as much for Wayland display yet.

KerrAvon 2y ago
Architecture contributes, but all it takes to blow input latency is some inefficient code almost anywhere in the input or rendering pipeline. The Apple IIe didn’t really have very many layers between the keyboard and the CRT. Wayland might have an optimal architecture in theory for latency — I don’t know — and latency could still be ruined by not fully optimizing the other components in the stack.
mrweasel 2y ago
> Was Wayland not architected to be simpler to implement than the (antique) X11 protocol? I think it's safe to assume that it is actually simpler, given that we already have multiple Wayland implementations, but still basically just the one X11 server implementation. Can one or more of those implementations shave off one or two milliseconds overs the next 40 years... Probably yes.
- somat 2y ago
  Sure, on linux all you really have is xorg, what used to be xfree86, but I have used xsgi, and there are X servers for windows, heck, I have even seen this amazing demo Xserver that ran on the web. footnote: there is something wrong with the commonly used web search engines and I am unable to find that X11 web demo, I think they are prioritizing recent content over good content. you would think with how interesting that web demo was it was it would show up right away. but I got nothing, so no links. Anyway it was a deep dive into the intricacies of X11 window painting and the author had ported a limited subset of an X server to javascript in order to provide a live demonstration of the topic. I will keep looking. Found it. https://magcius.github.io/xplain/article/x-basics.html https://magcius.github.io/xplain/article/x-basics.html
  - hirako2000 2y ago
    It's called a SEO driven content vs quality drive content. Unfortunately the engine has has poor sense of taste.
GuB-42 2y ago
Wayland is simpler because it does less. And among the things Wayland doesn't do and X does are things that people need. It means these things have to be implemented elsewhere. It is a common problem with these "simple" things. The problem is complex, and if you simplify one part, you are just pushing complexity elsewhere, you are not making it disappear. It is sometimes a good thing, but in the case of Wayland, it didn't go well.
- freehorse 2y ago
  There is also the option to make complexity disappear by just convincing people that they should not want to do what they want to do. This was the kind of response to what I needed to do. Then I had to switch back to x11. In any case wayland is not bad if you only have pretty basic needs I guess, some basic things look easier to me there from a user perspective, and troubleshooting x11-related issues for a non-technical person is no fun either.
dsp_person 2y ago
I'm impressed how wlroots compiles in under 3 seconds for me