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For those of you really thinking about this, here's the current status of hydrogen fueling stations in California: https://h2-ca.com/ https://h2-ca.com/ Out o

For those of you really thinking about this, here's the current status of hydrogen fueling stations in California: https://h2-ca.com/ https://h2-ca.com/ Out of 65 stations in the state, only 33 currently have fuel and are known "online". Good luck!

JumpCrisscross 2y ago
> Out of 65 stations in the state, only 33 currently have fuel and are known "online" Hydrogen cars are the worst of all worlds. You still have to overhaul your production and distribution infrastructure. But you keep the complicated power train and time suck of tank-filling from ICE vehicles.
- sambull 2y ago
  but you get to keep a distribution infrastructure. I think that's the goal. They still want the 'fuel' company in the middle.
  - AnotherGoodName 2y ago
    I think it’s even more sinister honestly. It’s trivial to make synthetic methane today (basically the exact same process as synthetic hydrogen - electrolysis of water but in presence of co2 and a catalyst will make methane instead) and that’s a very common fuel source with a functioning distribution network already. So if the goal is to make green fuel why not just use supply the existing natural gas network with synthetically produced fuel? Why go to great lengths to ship and store hydrogen that’s really really hard to work with in so many ways? I think the answer is that there’s no intention of hydrogen being actually a green fuel source. It’s just going to be made from cracking hydrocarbons but it’s branding as green will obfuscate that. If they wanted to make fuel from electricity which is the implied promise of hydrogen they’d do that already. But they don’t. There’s absolutely no intention of being green here.
    - bryanlarsen 2y ago
      It's because synthetic methane makes no sense economically. Similarly Hydrogen doesn't make any sense economically either, but because it's much more hypothetical the concerns can be hand waved away. Not so with synthetic methane.
      - AnotherGoodName 2y ago
        I agree and that’s the point I’m making here to be clear. If it made sense they’d do it already. Electrolysis->methane and use the existing network makes no sense. Hydrogen with its custom network is an even larger step from making sense.
- stephenr 2y ago
  > But you keep the complicated power train The "drive train" is electric motors from a lithium ion battery... you know, like a "regular" EV. > time suck of tank-filling from ICE vehicles. The Toyota spec page says it can fill the tank in 5 minutes. How many EVs can go from nothing or practically nothing to a full charge in 5 minutes?
  - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
    > "drive train" is electric motors from a lithium ion battery... you know, like a "regular" EV It's an EV + a fuel cell and tank assembly. Same drivetrain. Complicated powertrain [1]. > Toyota spec page says it can fill the tank in 5 minutes. How many EVs can go from nothing or practically nothing to a full charge in 5 minutes? 5 minutes to fill, call it ten minutes round trip to get there and back, plus scheduling friction: that's 20 to 30 minutes out of the day. If you don't own a car, you don't have to do this. I don't own an EV. But the people I know who do spend close to zero minutes a year actually charging their EV. It happens silently while parked at home or at work or, on road trips, while they lunch. The normalisation of the fill-up routine is mind-bogglingly taxing in a way that's obvious to anyone who's spent any amount of time as an adult not driving a car (for Americans, living in New York). [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Powertrain https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Powertrain
    - stephenr 2y ago
      > The normalisation of the fill-up routine I've owned and driven ICE vehicles since the late 90s. I've owned cars in the country and the city, in 3 states of one country and in a second country. I've driven cars significant distances in two further countries. The trip you describe where you're going out of your way specially to get fuel and then return, is an exceedingly rare occurrence IME. It's generally just something I (or my wife) will do on the way as the tank gets to somewhere below half or a third full. Obviously if we're on a long distance trip we'll be more specific about it, but the expectation you have about making a special trip just to get fuel in a car is, as you put it "mind boggling".
      - 2y ago
idlephysicist 2y ago
Firstly, I love that website. It's simple and informative. I don't the average mileage or a hydrogen vehicle nor tank size, so I'll take your word on that. Using your numbers and the map I plotted a route that does get you from San Diego to the Oregon border. But you will need a tow truck to meet you at the end, because there would not be enough fuel to get you back to Sacramento. https://maps.app.goo.gl/p5tgvAkErktL7LTF6 https://maps.app.goo.gl/p5tgvAkErktL7LTF6

JumpCrisscross 2y ago

> Out of 65 stations in the state, only 33 currently have fuel and are known "online" Hydrogen cars are the worst of all worlds. You still have to overhaul your production and distribution infrastructure. But you keep the complicated power train and time suck of tank-filling from ICE vehicles.

sambull 2y ago
but you get to keep a distribution infrastructure. I think that's the goal. They still want the 'fuel' company in the middle.
- AnotherGoodName 2y ago
  I think it’s even more sinister honestly. It’s trivial to make synthetic methane today (basically the exact same process as synthetic hydrogen - electrolysis of water but in presence of co2 and a catalyst will make methane instead) and that’s a very common fuel source with a functioning distribution network already. So if the goal is to make green fuel why not just use supply the existing natural gas network with synthetically produced fuel? Why go to great lengths to ship and store hydrogen that’s really really hard to work with in so many ways? I think the answer is that there’s no intention of hydrogen being actually a green fuel source. It’s just going to be made from cracking hydrocarbons but it’s branding as green will obfuscate that. If they wanted to make fuel from electricity which is the implied promise of hydrogen they’d do that already. But they don’t. There’s absolutely no intention of being green here.
  - bryanlarsen 2y ago
    It's because synthetic methane makes no sense economically. Similarly Hydrogen doesn't make any sense economically either, but because it's much more hypothetical the concerns can be hand waved away. Not so with synthetic methane.
    - AnotherGoodName 2y ago
      I agree and that’s the point I’m making here to be clear. If it made sense they’d do it already. Electrolysis->methane and use the existing network makes no sense. Hydrogen with its custom network is an even larger step from making sense.
stephenr 2y ago
> But you keep the complicated power train The "drive train" is electric motors from a lithium ion battery... you know, like a "regular" EV. > time suck of tank-filling from ICE vehicles. The Toyota spec page says it can fill the tank in 5 minutes. How many EVs can go from nothing or practically nothing to a full charge in 5 minutes?
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago
  > "drive train" is electric motors from a lithium ion battery... you know, like a "regular" EV It's an EV + a fuel cell and tank assembly. Same drivetrain. Complicated powertrain [1]. > Toyota spec page says it can fill the tank in 5 minutes. How many EVs can go from nothing or practically nothing to a full charge in 5 minutes? 5 minutes to fill, call it ten minutes round trip to get there and back, plus scheduling friction: that's 20 to 30 minutes out of the day. If you don't own a car, you don't have to do this. I don't own an EV. But the people I know who do spend close to zero minutes a year actually charging their EV. It happens silently while parked at home or at work or, on road trips, while they lunch. The normalisation of the fill-up routine is mind-bogglingly taxing in a way that's obvious to anyone who's spent any amount of time as an adult not driving a car (for Americans, living in New York). [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Powertrain https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Powertrain
  - stephenr 2y ago
    > The normalisation of the fill-up routine I've owned and driven ICE vehicles since the late 90s. I've owned cars in the country and the city, in 3 states of one country and in a second country. I've driven cars significant distances in two further countries. The trip you describe where you're going out of your way specially to get fuel and then return, is an exceedingly rare occurrence IME. It's generally just something I (or my wife) will do on the way as the tank gets to somewhere below half or a third full. Obviously if we're on a long distance trip we'll be more specific about it, but the expectation you have about making a special trip just to get fuel in a car is, as you put it "mind boggling".
    - 2y ago

idlephysicist 2y ago

Firstly, I love that website. It's simple and informative. I don't the average mileage or a hydrogen vehicle nor tank size, so I'll take your word on that. Using your numbers and the map I plotted a route that does get you from San Diego to the Oregon border. But you will need a tow truck to meet you at the end, because there would not be enough fuel to get you back to Sacramento. https://maps.app.goo.gl/p5tgvAkErktL7LTF6 https://maps.app.goo.gl/p5tgvAkErktL7LTF6