5 ms·

Not specifically aimed at this comment, but it looks like in most Prolog threads here, many commenters seems to plugging in Scryer Prolog, but perhaps, SWI is t

Not specifically aimed at this comment, but it looks like in most Prolog threads here, many commenters seems to plugging in Scryer Prolog, but perhaps, SWI is the most 'batteries included' and mature Prolog implementation for people not familiar with Prolog to try out .

rscho 2y ago
There is a bit of... let's say friction between Markus Triska (Scryer) and Jan Wielemaker (SWI), I seem to remember. The SWI people are much less attached to ISO Prolog (i.e. prone to experiment with non-ISO syntax), and some things that are fixed in the SWI implementation impeded the realization of M. Triska's projects. Generally, people tend to like the new and shiny but there's also a significant philosophical gap between Scryer and SWI. Now why would syntax be that important? It's because it directly enables homoiconicity, which is central to Prolog metaprogramming features: executing Prolog code returns a Prolog term, that can be read (just like Lisp). This is the distinctive characteristic of Prolog compared to more mainstream solvers, and what makes it 'a good programming language because it's a very dumb theorem prover'.
- YeGoblynQueenne 2y ago
  Wot. SLD Resolution is a "very dumb" theorem prover? SLD Resolution is sound and refutation-complete and it is the basis not only of Prolog but also the most successful bunch of SAT solving algorithms in the last, dunno, several decades. "Very dumb theorem prover"!
  - rscho 2y ago
    "Prolog is an efficient programming language because it is a very stupid theorem prover." -- Richard O'Keefe
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
    - YeGoblynQueenne 2y ago
      So what's that now? An appeal to authority? SLD-Resolution is sound and refutation-complete (and also complete with subsumption). If you think that O'Keefe is right to say that it's a "very dumb theorem prover" then explain to me why _you_ think so, not who said it. Because I, too, can quote you authorities- and probably bigger than O'Keefe.
      - rscho 2y ago
        Not an appeal to authority. Just showing that quote wasn't of my invention. I don't really get why you're so riled up. I'm not saying SLD resolution is dumb, just that Prolog stays simple by not including all the clever heuristics and circumstantial techniques of other solvers. Which is a big part of what makes Prolog a nice programming language. It's more a compliment than a critic, really!
        YeGoblynQueenne 2y ago
        I'm not riled up, I even upvoted your OP, but it's uncouth to drop a quote without any context as a reply to a comment. Of course there's going to be misunderstandings. I didn't remember that quote from O'Keefe. Prolog is indeed not trying to be smart and SLD-Resolution is dead simple - it's a sound and complete deductive inference system with a single rule. The reason Prolog is in turn so simple is because, thanks to the refutation-completeness of SLD-Resolution, you can implement it as a Depth-First Search for resolvents and then spam it until you get a result (or until you hit an infinite branch... oops). That's certainly orders of magnitude more simple than every other solver or automated theorem prover out there, like you say. If that's what O'Keefe means, that Proolog is not trying to be smart, then OK, but that's not dumb. Every other solver tries to be smart and ends up having to solve an unsolvable problem. Who's dumb now then? But maybe that's the compliment, I don't remember the context of O'Keefe's comment. Was it in the Craft of Prolog?
        rscho 2y ago
        TBH, I don't remember where I first read it, but it's all over the web xD. This is all just a misunderstanding: since I knew you were a Prolog expert, I assumed you would recognize my (botched) quote and the context. Yeah, I understand it as: 'better to keep it simple and understandable'
jodrellblank 2y ago
SWI Prolog 7 added "X = Dict.key" syntax and that use of "." makes it fundamentally incompatible, ISO standard breaking, backwards incompatible to previous Prologs, sideways incompatible to other Prologs. This is a worse sin in Prolog than it seems at a glance, because one of the strengths Prolog has is code-is-data / data-is-code metaprogramming. That includes exporting code as Prolog terms (use cases you might use CSV or JSON for in other languages), reading them back in as Prolog data (perhaps in a different Prolog system or different version) and executing the data as Prolog code. With that "." syntax change no other Prolog system can guarantee to read all SWI Prolog code, SWI 7 can't guarantee to read all SWI 6 code, and SWI 6 can't guarantee to read all SWI 7 code. Code might say "connect_to_mongodb()" and you don't have mongodb in your system so you cannot run it, but you can read the code in as data and it will parse, just like reading in JSON which has a string mentioning some library you don't have; you can still introspect it and write reports like "what names does this data reference?", you can transform it and export it, or pass it through untouched. With SWI's new dot syntax the code might not parse at all, like an incompatible proprietary JSON syntax where you can't even import it. Code written 30 years ago which uses the dot in the old standard way might trigger SWI to try and read it in the Dict.key way and fail. Code exported from SWI 7 might include this syntax which other systems can't import. I don't know how often it will come up in practise, but it seems that SWI could have done it with a slightly different syntax that would have been as convenient to use and also been a standard term and wouldn't have made this split at all. SWI has some other differences versus ISO Prolog, things inside error handling, for example, but none quite so fundamental as this. And it's annoying from the outside because you can wade into a big-ball-of-mud design-by-committee language, but if you want to look at an esoteric language and they're all arguing over who is most pure and virtuous you have to pick a religion before you can write Hello world. Markus Triska's Power of Prolog series has been some of the best Prolog publicising material in years, something that isn't (totally) a dry academic text of "a --> a | a. a(A) :- a([a|As]) , a(As).", it must be a huge amount of work on his part. He uses and contributes to Scryer Prolog, and he is especially interested in Constraint Language Programming which he wrote/maintained in SWI[1], and has moved the newer versions to Scryer. That said, I strongly agree with your comment, SWI is batteries included, it has lots of builtins, a packaging system to download and install modules, it has a debugger and graphical debugger and tracer and just a ton of decades of development and polish that Scryer hasn't had time to develop yet, and is much much friendlier for people not familiar with Prolog to try out. You have to be pretty hardcore to be writing Scryer Prolog in EMACS buffers with no predicate search, no help, limited libraries, limited documentation, limited debugging, very small online community even by Prolog standards which is already small. When you could open https://swish.swi-prolog.org/ https://swish.swi-prolog.org/ and click 'new Program' and as a beginner be able to write syntax highlighted code in browser with no download, no setup, no install, no account registration, but it's SWI Prolog. Query "apropos(string)" in the query box in the lower right and see things like "string_lower/2" and "string_concat/3". That search is convenient and those predicates are SWI custom ones. Query "help(format)" and see HTML styled, coloured, scrollable help for the text formatting domain specific language. That's enormously useful. [1] https://www.swi-prolog.org/pldoc/man?section=clpfd https://www.swi-prolog.org/pldoc/man?section=clpfd "Author: Markus Triska"

rscho 2y ago

There is a bit of... let's say friction between Markus Triska (Scryer) and Jan Wielemaker (SWI), I seem to remember. The SWI people are much less attached to ISO Prolog (i.e. prone to experiment with non-ISO syntax), and some things that are fixed in the SWI implementation impeded the realization of M. Triska's projects. Generally, people tend to like the new and shiny but there's also a significant philosophical gap between Scryer and SWI. Now why would syntax be that important? It's because it directly enables homoiconicity, which is central to Prolog metaprogramming features: executing Prolog code returns a Prolog term, that can be read (just like Lisp). This is the distinctive characteristic of Prolog compared to more mainstream solvers, and what makes it 'a good programming language because it's a very dumb theorem prover'.

YeGoblynQueenne 2y ago
Wot. SLD Resolution is a "very dumb" theorem prover? SLD Resolution is sound and refutation-complete and it is the basis not only of Prolog but also the most successful bunch of SAT solving algorithms in the last, dunno, several decades. "Very dumb theorem prover"!
- rscho 2y ago
  "Prolog is an efficient programming language because it is a very stupid theorem prover." -- Richard O'Keefe
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - YeGoblynQueenne 2y ago
    So what's that now? An appeal to authority? SLD-Resolution is sound and refutation-complete (and also complete with subsumption). If you think that O'Keefe is right to say that it's a "very dumb theorem prover" then explain to me why _you_ think so, not who said it. Because I, too, can quote you authorities- and probably bigger than O'Keefe.
    - rscho 2y ago
      Not an appeal to authority. Just showing that quote wasn't of my invention. I don't really get why you're so riled up. I'm not saying SLD resolution is dumb, just that Prolog stays simple by not including all the clever heuristics and circumstantial techniques of other solvers. Which is a big part of what makes Prolog a nice programming language. It's more a compliment than a critic, really!
      - YeGoblynQueenne 2y ago
        I'm not riled up, I even upvoted your OP, but it's uncouth to drop a quote without any context as a reply to a comment. Of course there's going to be misunderstandings. I didn't remember that quote from O'Keefe. Prolog is indeed not trying to be smart and SLD-Resolution is dead simple - it's a sound and complete deductive inference system with a single rule. The reason Prolog is in turn so simple is because, thanks to the refutation-completeness of SLD-Resolution, you can implement it as a Depth-First Search for resolvents and then spam it until you get a result (or until you hit an infinite branch... oops). That's certainly orders of magnitude more simple than every other solver or automated theorem prover out there, like you say. If that's what O'Keefe means, that Proolog is not trying to be smart, then OK, but that's not dumb. Every other solver tries to be smart and ends up having to solve an unsolvable problem. Who's dumb now then? But maybe that's the compliment, I don't remember the context of O'Keefe's comment. Was it in the Craft of Prolog?
        rscho 2y ago
        TBH, I don't remember where I first read it, but it's all over the web xD. This is all just a misunderstanding: since I knew you were a Prolog expert, I assumed you would recognize my (botched) quote and the context. Yeah, I understand it as: 'better to keep it simple and understandable'

jodrellblank 2y ago

SWI Prolog 7 added "X = Dict.key" syntax and that use of "." makes it fundamentally incompatible, ISO standard breaking, backwards incompatible to previous Prologs, sideways incompatible to other Prologs. This is a worse sin in Prolog than it seems at a glance, because one of the strengths Prolog has is code-is-data / data-is-code metaprogramming. That includes exporting code as Prolog terms (use cases you might use CSV or JSON for in other languages), reading them back in as Prolog data (perhaps in a different Prolog system or different version) and executing the data as Prolog code. With that "." syntax change no other Prolog system can guarantee to read all SWI Prolog code, SWI 7 can't guarantee to read all SWI 6 code, and SWI 6 can't guarantee to read all SWI 7 code. Code might say "connect_to_mongodb()" and you don't have mongodb in your system so you cannot run it, but you can read the code in as data and it will parse, just like reading in JSON which has a string mentioning some library you don't have; you can still introspect it and write reports like "what names does this data reference?", you can transform it and export it, or pass it through untouched. With SWI's new dot syntax the code might not parse at all, like an incompatible proprietary JSON syntax where you can't even import it. Code written 30 years ago which uses the dot in the old standard way might trigger SWI to try and read it in the Dict.key way and fail. Code exported from SWI 7 might include this syntax which other systems can't import. I don't know how often it will come up in practise, but it seems that SWI could have done it with a slightly different syntax that would have been as convenient to use and also been a standard term and wouldn't have made this split at all. SWI has some other differences versus ISO Prolog, things inside error handling, for example, but none quite so fundamental as this. And it's annoying from the outside because you can wade into a big-ball-of-mud design-by-committee language, but if you want to look at an esoteric language and they're all arguing over who is most pure and virtuous you have to pick a religion before you can write Hello world. Markus Triska's Power of Prolog series has been some of the best Prolog publicising material in years, something that isn't (totally) a dry academic text of "a --> a | a. a(A) :- a([a|As]) , a(As).", it must be a huge amount of work on his part. He uses and contributes to Scryer Prolog, and he is especially interested in Constraint Language Programming which he wrote/maintained in SWI[1], and has moved the newer versions to Scryer. That said, I strongly agree with your comment, SWI is batteries included, it has lots of builtins, a packaging system to download and install modules, it has a debugger and graphical debugger and tracer and just a ton of decades of development and polish that Scryer hasn't had time to develop yet, and is much much friendlier for people not familiar with Prolog to try out. You have to be pretty hardcore to be writing Scryer Prolog in EMACS buffers with no predicate search, no help, limited libraries, limited documentation, limited debugging, very small online community even by Prolog standards which is already small. When you could open https://swish.swi-prolog.org/ https://swish.swi-prolog.org/ and click 'new Program' and as a beginner be able to write syntax highlighted code in browser with no download, no setup, no install, no account registration, but it's SWI Prolog. Query "apropos(string)" in the query box in the lower right and see things like "string_lower/2" and "string_concat/3". That search is convenient and those predicates are SWI custom ones. Query "help(format)" and see HTML styled, coloured, scrollable help for the text formatting domain specific language. That's enormously useful. [1] https://www.swi-prolog.org/pldoc/man?section=clpfd https://www.swi-prolog.org/pldoc/man?section=clpfd "Author: Markus Triska"