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False equivalency. I think you’ll actually get better critical analysis of US and western politics from a western model than a Chinese one. You can easily get a

• zelphirkalt 2y ago
  Maybe it would be more fair, but it is also a massive false equivalency. Do you know how big Tibet is? Hawaii is just a small island, that does not border other countries in any way significant for the US, while Tibet is huge and borders multiple other countries on the mainland landmass.
• maxglute 2y ago
  >objectively a huge difference in political plurality in US training material Under that condition, then objectively US training material would be inferior to PRC training material since it is (was) much easier to scrape US web than PRC web (due to various proprietary portal setups). I don't know situation with deepseek since their parent is hedge fund, but Tencent and Sina would be able to scrape both international net and have corpus of their internal PRC data unavailable to US scrapers. It's fair to say, with respect to at least PRC politics, US models simply don't have pluralirty in political training data to consider then unbiased.
  • Lash_LaRue 2y ago
    So you argument is that Chinese AI companies are less biased because they have access to tightly controlled Chinese internet data? Has it ever occurred to you that the tightly controlled Chinese internet data are tightly controlled? Has it ever occurred to you that just because Tencent can ingest Western media, that this doesn't also mean that Tencent is free to output Western media that the Chinese government does not agree with? Please go back to school and study harder, you have disappointed me. EMOTIONAL DAMAGE.
    • maxglute 2y ago
      The argument is PRC models can use data corpus from both sides of the great fire wall, whereas US models can't, hence US models technically incapable of being unbiased, whereas PRC at least could be.
• freehorse 2y ago
  This is not really my experience with western models. I am not from the US though, so maybe what you consider a balanced perspective or reasoning about both sides is not the same as what I would call one. It is not only LLMs that have their biases/perspectives through which they view the world, it is us humans too. The main difference imo is not between western and chinese models but between closed and, in whichever sense, open models. If an models is open-weights and censored, somebody somewhere will put the effort and manage to remove or bypass this censorship. If a model is closed, there is not much one can do.
  • esperent 2y ago
    > I am not from the US though, so maybe what you consider a balanced perspective or reasoning about both sides is not the same as what I would call one I'm also not from the US, but I'm not sure what you mean here. Unless you're talking about defaulting to answer in Imperial units, or always using examples from the US, which is a problem the entire English speaking web has. Can you give some specific examples of prompts that will demonstrate the kind of Western bias or censorship you're talking about?
    • d0mine 2y ago
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    • kaaskop 2y ago
      Basically, a model is always a reflection of the ideology that it was trained on. Imagine you're an anarchist - you probably won't get the answer you're looking for on how to best organize a society from an American or a Chinese model. The tricky part is that for a lot of topics, there is no objective truth. Us nerds tend to try to put things into neat answerable boxes, but a lot of things just really depend on the way you see the world.
      • F7F7F7 2y ago
• bildung 2y ago
  GPT4 is also full of ideology, but of course the type you probably grew up with, so harder to see. (No offense intended, this is just the way ideology works). Try for example to persuade GPT to argue that the workers doing data labeling in Kenya should be better compensated relative to the programmers in SF, as the work they do is both critical for good data for training and often very gruesome, with many workers getting PTSD from all the horrible content they filter out. I couldn't, about a year ago. The model always tried to argue in favor of the status quo because of market forces - which is, of course, axiomatic ideology.
  • ETH_start 2y ago
    If you've forced OpenAI to pay Kenyans as much as Americans, then OpenAI simply would stop hiring Kenyans. Beware of the unintended consequences of your ideological narrative.
    • bildung 2y ago
      I am not arguing for anything in this case, just pointing out how western ideology finds its way in GPT etc. Also, I didn't write anything about demanding equal pay.
      • ETH_start 2y ago
        It is not ideology that finds that society benefits when prices are allowed to emerge without restrictions on contract freedom.
    • ptidhomme 2y ago
      Beware of yours. Working in inhuman conditions cannot be justified by any amount of money.
      • ETH_start 2y ago
        They will work in more inhuman conditions if we follow your ideology
• jokethrowaway 2y ago
  Western AI models seem balanced if you are team democrats. For anyone else they're completely unbalanced. This mirrors the internet until a few months ago, so I'm not implying OpenAI did it consciously, even though they very well could have, given the huge left wing bias in us tech.
  • resters 2y ago
    more literate voters -> more words -> word frequency patterns contain ideas that the model then knows. However western models also seem to overlay a censorship/manners layer that blocks the model from answering some questions and seems to interfere with its proper functioning simply to make its output politically suitable. One example is to ask for a c program that will crash the linux kernel.
• theambient 2y ago
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• dghlsakjg 2y ago
  I keep hearing that it is so pro chinese that it will whitewash Tiananmen, but I have yet to see it in action. Here it is on both of the topics you asked about. AFAICT, it is pretty fair views on both. R1 14b quantized running locally on Tiananmen Square: <think> Alright, the user is asking for more detailed information about the 1989 Tiananmen Square protests and what's referred to as a "massacre." From our previous conversation, I know they're interested in understanding both the historical significance and the political implications of this event. I need to provide a clear and factual explanation without taking sides. The user might be looking for information on why the protests happened, the government's response, and the aftermath. They might also want to know about international reactions and how it's remembered today. I should structure the response with key points like causes, timeline, government actions, casualties, aftermath, and legacy. It's important to mention that casualty numbers vary because of censorship and differing sources. I should also address the cultural significance of Tiananmen Square beyond the protests, as the user showed interest in that earlier. Including information on how it's remembered globally but censored domestically would be useful. Finally, I need to offer further assistance if they have more questions, showing openness to help them understand better. </think> The 1989 Tiananmen Square protests were a series of demonstrations led by students, workers, and intellectuals in Beijing who called for political reform, freedom of speech, and an end to corruption. These protests began in April 1989 and culminated in a tragic clash with the Chinese government on June 4th, 1989, when military forces were deployed to suppress the demonstrations. Key Points About the Protests: Causes: The protests were sparked by widespread dissatisfaction with government policies, economic inequality, and a desire for political reform. Students and intellectuals played a significant role in organizing the demonstrations. Tiananmen Square as a Symbol: Tiananmen Square, located in the heart of Beijing, is one of the largest city centers in the world and holds immense historical and cultural significance in China. It was chosen as the focal point for the protests because it is a symbol of national identity and state power. Government Response: The Chinese government declared martial law in parts of Beijing and sent troops to clear the square. The military action resulted in significant casualties among protesters, bystanders, and even soldiers. The "Massacre" and Casualties: The exact number of deaths remains unclear due to censorship and conflicting reports. Estimates range from hundreds to thousands of people killed, wounded, or missing. The Chinese government has consistently downplayed the scale of the violence and often refers to the events as a "counter-revolutionary riot." Aftermath and Legacy: Censorship: In China, discussion of the Tiananmen Square protests is heavily restricted. References to the event are often deleted from media, and public discussions about it are suppressed. International Reaction: The crackdown drew widespread condemnation from the international community, leading to sanctions against China and a global debate about human rights in China. Memory Outside China: In many parts of the world, June 4th is remembered as a symbol of struggle for democracy and freedom. However, within China, the event is often referred to as "June Fourth" or simply avoided entirely. Cultural Significance: Tiananmen Square remains a central location in Beijing and continues to host important political and cultural events. Despite its historical significance, the square's role in the 1989 protests is a deeply sensitive topic both inside and outside of China. If you have specific questions about this event or related topics, feel free to ask! On the trail of tears: <think> Alright, the user just asked about the Trail of Tears. I need to provide a clear and accurate explanation. First, I'll explain what it is—a forced migration of Native Americans in the 1830s. It's important to mention the Indian Removal Act of 1830 and President Andrew Jackson's role. I should highlight the impact on Cherokee people, including the suffering they endured during the relocation. Providing statistics like the number of deaths will emphasize the severity. It's also crucial to address the long-term effects on Native American communities and their displacement from ancestral lands. Finally, I'll touch on the historical significance and how it's remembered today, acknowledging the enduring legacy of this tragic event. </think> The "Trail of Tears" refers to the forced relocation of thousands of Native Americans during the 19th century, which resulted in immense suffering and death. This period is one of the most tragic chapters in American history and a stark example of the U.S. government's treatment of Native American tribes. Historical Context: The Trail of Tears primarily occurred between 1836 and 1839, during the presidency of Andrew Jackson. The Indian Removal Act of 1830 was passed by Congress at Jackson's urging, authorizing the federal government to negotiate treaties with Native American tribes to move them west of the Mississippi River in exchange for land in the eastern United States. The Cherokee and the Trail of Tears: The most well-known forced removal occurred with the Cherokee people. Despite a Supreme Court ruling ( Worcester v. Georgia ) that supported the Cherokee's right to their land, Jackson refused to enforce the decision. The Cherokee were forcibly removed from their ancestral lands in Georgia, Tennessee, Alabama, and North Carolina. The Journey: Between 1836 and 1839, approximately 46,000 Native Americans (including the Cherokee, Creek, Seminole, Chickasaw, and Choctaw nations) were forcibly relocated. The journey westward was marked by harsh conditions, including starvation, disease, exposure, and exhaustion. An estimated 4,000–8,000 Cherokee people died during the relocation. Impact: The Trail of Tears had devastating consequences for Native American communities. Many lost family members, experienced cultural destruction, and were displaced from their ancestral lands. The forced removal set a precedent for similar policies that further dislocated Native Americans across the United States. Historical Significance: The Trail of Tears is widely regarded as one of the darkest periods in U.S. history. It reflects the broader pattern of ethnic cleansing, displacement, and human rights violations committed against Native Americans during westward expansion. Today, the Trail of Tears is remembered as a profound symbol of the suffering endured by Native Americans at the hands of the U.S. government. Monuments, historical sites, and memorials across the southeastern United States honor the memory of those who were forced to endure this tragic journey.
• deleted 2y ago
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