3 ms·

every market passes costs to payers. That doesn’t explain anything. For the Chicago government, it’s a political project. They are happy to take losses. Let m

every market passes costs to payers. That doesn’t explain anything. For the Chicago government, it’s a political project. They are happy to take losses. Let me just restate the original point made in this thread. Are solar and wind cheaper in these areas where coal is still operating or not?

toomuchtodo 2y ago
https://www.utilitydive.com/news/renewables-cheaper-energy-than-99-percent-of-us-coal-plants-just-energy-transition/642393/ https://www.utilitydive.com/news/renewables-cheaper-energy-t... https://energyinnovation.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/01/Coal-Cost-Crossover-3.0.pdf https://energyinnovation.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/01/Coal... > This report finds 99 percent of the existing U.S. coal fleet is more expensive to run compared to replacement by new solar or wind. Replacing coal plants with local wind and solar would also save enough to finance nearly 150 gigawatts of four-hour battery storage, over 60 percent of the coal fleet’s capacity, and generate $589 billion in new investment across the U.S. Our report provides policy recommendations to facilitate a just transition through the Coal Cost Crossover. Lazard LCOE+ 2024 report, PDF - https://www.lazard.com/media/gjyffoqd/lazards-lcoeplus-june-2024.pdf https://www.lazard.com/media/gjyffoqd/lazards-lcoeplus-june-... New solar plants expected to support most U.S. electric generation growth - https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=64364 https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=64364 - January 24, 2025 So, if you want to argue these decisions are about politics and ideology, that is a choice. The economics are clear. The report I cite above is ~2 years old, the favorable economics of renewables and batteries has only increased since then due to rapid cost declines of both.
- liontwist 2y ago
  The first link is taking into account government incentives, and doesn’t actually cite any source about cost comparison: > New Inflation Reduction Act clean energy incentives and financing and potential strengthened U.S. Environmental Protection Agency pollution standards mean the economic risks for existing coal — and the communities that depend upon them economically — will only get worse The second link is also about the inflation reduction act. The EIA link is also a market prediction of where investment will be made, which also takes into account subsidies. Post your best link that makes your point. My conclusion right now is you litter in links to appear authoritative.
  - toomuchtodo 2y ago
    Where Coal Is Retiring, and Hanging On, in the U.S. - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42975565 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42975565 - Feb 2025 https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2025/02/06/climate/coal-plants-retirement.html https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2025/02/06/climate/coal-... | https://archive.today/Egwuc https://archive.today/Egwuc > But along with market forces, utilities could also take advantage of changes in environmental regulations to keep coal stations open, especially in coal-friendly states like Wyoming, where two-fifths of U.S. coal is still mined. > “For an investor-owned monopoly utility, it’s not costing them to keep running the plant, necessarily, it’s costing the ratepayers who are paying for that,” Dr. Solomon said. “Politically, there’s a lot of support for coal in Wyoming and Utah where Rocky Mountain power is operating so I think they just don’t feel a ton of pressure to move to cleaner energy sources.” Global Cost of Renewables to Continue Falling in 2025 as China Extends Lead - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42976388 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42976388 - Feb 2025 https://about.bnef.com/blog/global-cost-of-renewables-to-continue-falling-in-2025-as-china-extends-manufacturing-lead-bloombergnef/ https://about.bnef.com/blog/global-cost-of-renewables-to-con... | https://archive.today/pJ0lb https://archive.today/pJ0lb > According to a latest report by research provider BloombergNEF (BNEF), new wind and solar farms are already undercutting new coal and gas plants on production cost in almost every market globally. > “New solar plants, even without subsidies, are within touching distance of new US gas plants. This is remarkable because US gas prices are only a quarter of prevailing gas prices in Europe and Asia. It really raises the bar on what is possible even in the current market, said Amar Vasdev, lead author of the report. “This opens up the likelihood that solar will become even more compelling in the coming years, especially if the US starts exporting liquified natural gas and exposes its protected gas market to global price competition.” > “China is exporting green energy tech so cheaply that the rest of the world is thinking about erecting barriers to protect their own industries, said Matthias Kimmel, head of Energy Economics at BNEF. “But the overall trend in cost reductions is so strong that nobody, not even President Trump, will be able to halt it.”

toomuchtodo 2y ago

https://www.utilitydive.com/news/renewables-cheaper-energy-than-99-percent-of-us-coal-plants-just-energy-transition/642393/ https://www.utilitydive.com/news/renewables-cheaper-energy-t... https://energyinnovation.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/01/Coal-Cost-Crossover-3.0.pdf https://energyinnovation.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/01/Coal... > This report finds 99 percent of the existing U.S. coal fleet is more expensive to run compared to replacement by new solar or wind. Replacing coal plants with local wind and solar would also save enough to finance nearly 150 gigawatts of four-hour battery storage, over 60 percent of the coal fleet’s capacity, and generate $589 billion in new investment across the U.S. Our report provides policy recommendations to facilitate a just transition through the Coal Cost Crossover. Lazard LCOE+ 2024 report, PDF - https://www.lazard.com/media/gjyffoqd/lazards-lcoeplus-june-2024.pdf https://www.lazard.com/media/gjyffoqd/lazards-lcoeplus-june-... New solar plants expected to support most U.S. electric generation growth - https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=64364 https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=64364 - January 24, 2025 So, if you want to argue these decisions are about politics and ideology, that is a choice. The economics are clear. The report I cite above is ~2 years old, the favorable economics of renewables and batteries has only increased since then due to rapid cost declines of both.

liontwist 2y ago
The first link is taking into account government incentives, and doesn’t actually cite any source about cost comparison: > New Inflation Reduction Act clean energy incentives and financing and potential strengthened U.S. Environmental Protection Agency pollution standards mean the economic risks for existing coal — and the communities that depend upon them economically — will only get worse The second link is also about the inflation reduction act. The EIA link is also a market prediction of where investment will be made, which also takes into account subsidies. Post your best link that makes your point. My conclusion right now is you litter in links to appear authoritative.
- toomuchtodo 2y ago
  Where Coal Is Retiring, and Hanging On, in the U.S. - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42975565 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42975565 - Feb 2025 https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2025/02/06/climate/coal-plants-retirement.html https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2025/02/06/climate/coal-... | https://archive.today/Egwuc https://archive.today/Egwuc > But along with market forces, utilities could also take advantage of changes in environmental regulations to keep coal stations open, especially in coal-friendly states like Wyoming, where two-fifths of U.S. coal is still mined. > “For an investor-owned monopoly utility, it’s not costing them to keep running the plant, necessarily, it’s costing the ratepayers who are paying for that,” Dr. Solomon said. “Politically, there’s a lot of support for coal in Wyoming and Utah where Rocky Mountain power is operating so I think they just don’t feel a ton of pressure to move to cleaner energy sources.” Global Cost of Renewables to Continue Falling in 2025 as China Extends Lead - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42976388 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42976388 - Feb 2025 https://about.bnef.com/blog/global-cost-of-renewables-to-continue-falling-in-2025-as-china-extends-manufacturing-lead-bloombergnef/ https://about.bnef.com/blog/global-cost-of-renewables-to-con... | https://archive.today/pJ0lb https://archive.today/pJ0lb > According to a latest report by research provider BloombergNEF (BNEF), new wind and solar farms are already undercutting new coal and gas plants on production cost in almost every market globally. > “New solar plants, even without subsidies, are within touching distance of new US gas plants. This is remarkable because US gas prices are only a quarter of prevailing gas prices in Europe and Asia. It really raises the bar on what is possible even in the current market, said Amar Vasdev, lead author of the report. “This opens up the likelihood that solar will become even more compelling in the coming years, especially if the US starts exporting liquified natural gas and exposes its protected gas market to global price competition.” > “China is exporting green energy tech so cheaply that the rest of the world is thinking about erecting barriers to protect their own industries, said Matthias Kimmel, head of Energy Economics at BNEF. “But the overall trend in cost reductions is so strong that nobody, not even President Trump, will be able to halt it.”