3 ms·

First I've ever heard of hgroup. Subheadings are one of those little things I've wondered about the proper semantics for a million times and always end up doin

First I've ever heard of hgroup. Subheadings are one of those little things I've wondered about the proper semantics for a million times and always end up doing something slightly different on the fly.

hellcow 2y ago
PicoCSS uses them well, as an example: https://picocss.com/docs/typography#heading-group https://picocss.com/docs/typography#heading-group
adzm 2y ago
hgroup is considered deprecated in HTML5 though, whatever that actually means.
- sillysaurusx 2y ago
  It means if you use it then it’ll work fine but younger people will frown at you.
  - fsckboy 2y ago
    unlike the <blink> tag where younger people will just stare at you in a creepy extended unblinking gaze. it would be so much more satisfying if it still made them blink.
    - 9dev 2y ago
      I absolutely need to write a polyfill for that.
      - amenghra 2y ago
        blink { animation: 1s ease infinite blink_effect; } @keyframes blink_effect { 0% { opacity: 0; } 50% { opacity: 1; } 100% { opacity: 0; } }
- hellcow 2y ago
  Is it? I don't see any such warning or notice on https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/HTML/Element/hgroup https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/HTML/Element/hg.... It's still listed here: https://www.w3.org/TR/2011/WD-html5-20110405/sections.html#the-hgroup-element https://www.w3.org/TR/2011/WD-html5-20110405/sections.html#t.... Perhaps it was re-added?
  - adzm 2y ago
    Hmmm you are right! This discussion explains that a bit https://stackoverflow.com/questions/15808330/hgroup-element-removed-from-the-html5-specification-what-alternative-technique https://stackoverflow.com/questions/15808330/hgroup-element-... looks like it was going to be removed, but WHATWG ended up keeping it.
- alwillis 2y ago
  > hgroup is considered deprecated in HTML5 though, whatever that actually means. It was only deprecated in the W3C specification, not the WHATWG specification. But now it's back in good standing: https://www.tpgi.com/subheadings-subtitles-alternative-titles-and-taglines-in-html/ https://www.tpgi.com/subheadings-subtitles-alternative-title...
- tannhaeuser 2y ago
  Worse, it has changed content rules and semantics in backward-incompatible ways. Meaning there are pages out there that used to be valid, but aren't anymore. And since HTML spills to EPub specs, I recall there were EPubs or EPub spec examples/test suites themselves having to change specifically, epubcheck being actually used for validation and hence directly noting this backward incompatibility. In a nutshell, hgroup was originally criticized and rejected when W3C was still redacting HTML specs received from the loose group of browser devs and other people calling themselves "WHAT working group" because it paired headings of multiple ranks in a way that confused assistive technologies in browsers. But the first (and at the same time the last;) W3C HTML recommenndation created as unredacted WHAT WG spec snapshot under the W3C/WHATWG "memorandum of understanding" actually smuggled hgroup in. Then Steve Faulkner removed HTML outlining and the whole concept of sectioning roots that was part of Ian Hickson's vision of "HTML 5" for the longest time, but W3C never actually started a new recommendation process afterwards, and the charter for the HTML WG at W3C, Inc. has ended last year. See details at [1]. Arguably, with this change in 2023, we're now post-HTML5. But don't tell the people believing in a single "HTML 5 standard". [1]: https://sgmljs.net/blog/blog2303.html https://sgmljs.net/blog/blog2303.html
alwillis 2y ago
> First I've ever heard of hgroup. <hgroup> was officially added to the HTML spec in 2018 [1] It was deprecated in the W3C spec but not from the WHATWG spec, before they were merged. [1]: https://html.spec.whatwg.org/#the-hgroup-element https://html.spec.whatwg.org/#the-hgroup-element

hellcow 2y ago

PicoCSS uses them well, as an example: https://picocss.com/docs/typography#heading-group https://picocss.com/docs/typography#heading-group

adzm 2y ago

hgroup is considered deprecated in HTML5 though, whatever that actually means.

sillysaurusx 2y ago
It means if you use it then it’ll work fine but younger people will frown at you.
- fsckboy 2y ago
  unlike the <blink> tag where younger people will just stare at you in a creepy extended unblinking gaze. it would be so much more satisfying if it still made them blink.
  - 9dev 2y ago
    I absolutely need to write a polyfill for that.
    - amenghra 2y ago
      blink { animation: 1s ease infinite blink_effect; } @keyframes blink_effect { 0% { opacity: 0; } 50% { opacity: 1; } 100% { opacity: 0; } }
hellcow 2y ago
Is it? I don't see any such warning or notice on https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/HTML/Element/hgroup https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/HTML/Element/hg.... It's still listed here: https://www.w3.org/TR/2011/WD-html5-20110405/sections.html#the-hgroup-element https://www.w3.org/TR/2011/WD-html5-20110405/sections.html#t.... Perhaps it was re-added?
- adzm 2y ago
  Hmmm you are right! This discussion explains that a bit https://stackoverflow.com/questions/15808330/hgroup-element-removed-from-the-html5-specification-what-alternative-technique https://stackoverflow.com/questions/15808330/hgroup-element-... looks like it was going to be removed, but WHATWG ended up keeping it.
alwillis 2y ago
> hgroup is considered deprecated in HTML5 though, whatever that actually means. It was only deprecated in the W3C specification, not the WHATWG specification. But now it's back in good standing: https://www.tpgi.com/subheadings-subtitles-alternative-titles-and-taglines-in-html/ https://www.tpgi.com/subheadings-subtitles-alternative-title...
tannhaeuser 2y ago
Worse, it has changed content rules and semantics in backward-incompatible ways. Meaning there are pages out there that used to be valid, but aren't anymore. And since HTML spills to EPub specs, I recall there were EPubs or EPub spec examples/test suites themselves having to change specifically, epubcheck being actually used for validation and hence directly noting this backward incompatibility. In a nutshell, hgroup was originally criticized and rejected when W3C was still redacting HTML specs received from the loose group of browser devs and other people calling themselves "WHAT working group" because it paired headings of multiple ranks in a way that confused assistive technologies in browsers. But the first (and at the same time the last;) W3C HTML recommenndation created as unredacted WHAT WG spec snapshot under the W3C/WHATWG "memorandum of understanding" actually smuggled hgroup in. Then Steve Faulkner removed HTML outlining and the whole concept of sectioning roots that was part of Ian Hickson's vision of "HTML 5" for the longest time, but W3C never actually started a new recommendation process afterwards, and the charter for the HTML WG at W3C, Inc. has ended last year. See details at [1]. Arguably, with this change in 2023, we're now post-HTML5. But don't tell the people believing in a single "HTML 5 standard". [1]: https://sgmljs.net/blog/blog2303.html https://sgmljs.net/blog/blog2303.html

alwillis 2y ago

> First I've ever heard of hgroup. <hgroup> was officially added to the HTML spec in 2018 [1] It was deprecated in the W3C spec but not from the WHATWG spec, before they were merged. [1]: https://html.spec.whatwg.org/#the-hgroup-element https://html.spec.whatwg.org/#the-hgroup-element