5 ms·

Does the unclassified part of the government have secrets? If so, why?

by throwaway48476 2y ago

pclmulqdq 2y ago
They legally don't have secrets but they practically do have secrets.
- throwaway48476 2y ago
  Maybe its time for the government to be public by default.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
    > Maybe its time for the government to be public by default Have you filed a FOIA request?
    - igor47 2y ago
      Thanks for being a voice of sanity in this insane thread
    - pclmulqdq 2y ago
      I have seen many FOIA requests get answered with heavy redactions and otherwise partial answers. For "public by default," lots of arms of the government don't see transparency as something they are supposed to do, and more as an imposition. Other parts of the government are good at responding to FOIA requests, but it's generally inversely proportional to the value of the information.
a12k 2y ago
Because the social security numbers, health records, or geographic details of people who have interacted with the government shouldn’t be open to the general public, for one.
- throwaway48476 2y ago
  All of that is exempt from FOIA already. In the case of other government agencies I'm sure they aren't allowed to disclose it either.
  - a12k 2y ago
    Yes, that’s exactly right. These are secrets the unclassified part of the government has. Being secrets they are exempt from FOIA.
greyface- 2y ago
https://www.justice.gov/d9/what_are_the_9_foia_exemptions.pdf https://www.justice.gov/d9/what_are_the_9_foia_exemptions.pd...
mmooss 2y ago
They have lots of confidential information. Some examples: * Many agencies - for example, the IRS, Medicare, Social Security, FEMA, agencies that provide loans, or any other service - have lots of information on individual citizens. * Many agencies have information or make decisions that would distort markets if leaked - it's release must be carefully managed - such as the departments of Treasury, Labor, Commerce; or the Federal Reserve. * The Department of Justice has lots of information pertaining to lawsuits and investigations that must be kept secret. etc.
- a12k 2y ago
  Yet another example that I've dealt with from the outside: as part of regulated community, I must submit some trade secrets to the government for regulatory purposes. Those trade secrets are legally required to be kept secret by the government from disclosure. This regime allows the government to inspect things that involve trade secrets, and me from those trade secrets being disclosed to competitors.
  - mmooss 2y ago
    Now Elon Musk and friends may have your trade secrets - they may have everyone's trade secrets.
darth_avocado 2y ago
When people think classified, they think UFOs and Assassinations. But something as simple as which agencies and agents are investigating which issues, companies and people, can be unclassified, effectively giving private interests opportunities to shut things down.
pragmatic 2y ago
The VA has PHI of veterans. You need to have a clearance to work with that data.
enragedcacti 2y ago
Aside from the other reasons already mentioned, fully public agencies would be astoundingly inefficient and ineffective. Government agencies are already subject to an intense amount of scrutiny (some sincere, some extremely bad faith) and if every email, bulletin, roadmap, etc. were public by default agencies would become even more catatonic than they already are. There needs to be a space for reasonable disagreement and problem-solving without the possibility of immense personal, professional, and political consequences. It could also make accountability harder because it would encourage avoiding paper trails whenever possible, even when employees believe they are acting within the law. Is FOIA the right amount of openness? I don't know, probably not, but it's definitely better than public-by-default.
- mmooss 2y ago
  I've thought about that. I suspect, like many things in the new very open Internet world, people would become accusomted to everything being out in the open, and no longer respond strongly to every little issue.
  - enragedcacti 2y ago
    I think it would look a lot like LibsOfTiktok. The sheer volume of information flowing would allow creating any polarizing narrative you want for an audience already primed to hear it and do something about it.
    - mmooss 2y ago
      There is a large volume of information about Trump, but nobody is doing much.
      - enragedcacti 2y ago
        1) Political violence is very asymmetric in the US 2) two people have tried to kill him in the last 6 months
pnutjam 2y ago
You have to pass a "public trust" clearance for alot of Gov departments. They vary in intensity. For example, GSA and USDA are both pretty quick and easy. Dept of Ed, treasury, and IRS are way more in-depth.

Does the unclassified part of the government have secrets? If so, why?

pclmulqdq 2y ago

They legally don't have secrets but they practically do have secrets.

throwaway48476 2y ago
Maybe its time for the government to be public by default.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago
  > Maybe its time for the government to be public by default Have you filed a FOIA request?
  - igor47 2y ago
    Thanks for being a voice of sanity in this insane thread
  - pclmulqdq 2y ago
    I have seen many FOIA requests get answered with heavy redactions and otherwise partial answers. For "public by default," lots of arms of the government don't see transparency as something they are supposed to do, and more as an imposition. Other parts of the government are good at responding to FOIA requests, but it's generally inversely proportional to the value of the information.

a12k 2y ago

Because the social security numbers, health records, or geographic details of people who have interacted with the government shouldn’t be open to the general public, for one.

throwaway48476 2y ago
All of that is exempt from FOIA already. In the case of other government agencies I'm sure they aren't allowed to disclose it either.
- a12k 2y ago
  Yes, that’s exactly right. These are secrets the unclassified part of the government has. Being secrets they are exempt from FOIA.

greyface- 2y ago

https://www.justice.gov/d9/what_are_the_9_foia_exemptions.pdf https://www.justice.gov/d9/what_are_the_9_foia_exemptions.pd...

mmooss 2y ago

They have lots of confidential information. Some examples: * Many agencies - for example, the IRS, Medicare, Social Security, FEMA, agencies that provide loans, or any other service - have lots of information on individual citizens. * Many agencies have information or make decisions that would distort markets if leaked - it's release must be carefully managed - such as the departments of Treasury, Labor, Commerce; or the Federal Reserve. * The Department of Justice has lots of information pertaining to lawsuits and investigations that must be kept secret. etc.

a12k 2y ago
Yet another example that I've dealt with from the outside: as part of regulated community, I must submit some trade secrets to the government for regulatory purposes. Those trade secrets are legally required to be kept secret by the government from disclosure. This regime allows the government to inspect things that involve trade secrets, and me from those trade secrets being disclosed to competitors.
- mmooss 2y ago
  Now Elon Musk and friends may have your trade secrets - they may have everyone's trade secrets.

darth_avocado 2y ago

When people think classified, they think UFOs and Assassinations. But something as simple as which agencies and agents are investigating which issues, companies and people, can be unclassified, effectively giving private interests opportunities to shut things down.

pragmatic 2y ago

The VA has PHI of veterans. You need to have a clearance to work with that data.

enragedcacti 2y ago

Aside from the other reasons already mentioned, fully public agencies would be astoundingly inefficient and ineffective. Government agencies are already subject to an intense amount of scrutiny (some sincere, some extremely bad faith) and if every email, bulletin, roadmap, etc. were public by default agencies would become even more catatonic than they already are. There needs to be a space for reasonable disagreement and problem-solving without the possibility of immense personal, professional, and political consequences. It could also make accountability harder because it would encourage avoiding paper trails whenever possible, even when employees believe they are acting within the law. Is FOIA the right amount of openness? I don't know, probably not, but it's definitely better than public-by-default.

mmooss 2y ago
I've thought about that. I suspect, like many things in the new very open Internet world, people would become accusomted to everything being out in the open, and no longer respond strongly to every little issue.
- enragedcacti 2y ago
  I think it would look a lot like LibsOfTiktok. The sheer volume of information flowing would allow creating any polarizing narrative you want for an audience already primed to hear it and do something about it.
  - mmooss 2y ago
    There is a large volume of information about Trump, but nobody is doing much.
    - enragedcacti 2y ago
      1) Political violence is very asymmetric in the US 2) two people have tried to kill him in the last 6 months

pnutjam 2y ago

You have to pass a "public trust" clearance for alot of Gov departments. They vary in intensity. For example, GSA and USDA are both pretty quick and easy. Dept of Ed, treasury, and IRS are way more in-depth.