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If it’s such a great cost savings what encouragement is needed? And if it’s still down the road, why couldn’t it be adopted when it is cheaper?

esafak 2y ago
Big oil.
prettyStandard 2y ago
I know right? I've never heard of large projects needing upfront capital!
- liontwist 2y ago
  American business is very good at financing upfront capital commitments with easy to calculate returns.
vlovich123 2y ago
Remember the days America demonstrated leadership, where we got to the moon rather than waiting for someone else to figure out how to get costs down or how we lead the effort to solve the hole in the ozone layer? Pepperidge Farms remembers.
- liontwist 2y ago
  So it’s not a cost savings then? It’s more of a scientific achievement with patriotic spirit?
  - vlovich123 2y ago
    I think you misunderstood what I said. There is value in being first to establish a dominant position as a market leader. Just focusing on costs misses the bigger issue of market domination. It's a missed opportunity UNLESS you believe that oil is the more cost effective solution in the long run. The subsidies are an investment in your country's dominance. That all the competitors believe otherwise might indicate your math may be off. Or the historically close ties between US leaders and Saudia Arabia on both sides of the aisle distorts the decision making.
matthewdgreen 2y ago
Industry is funding it, like crazy. You can look up the number of installed solar and wind plants this year, and the number of battery plants. Lots of them in red states like Texas, as well The biggest problem right now is that the new administration is trying to actively block those goals. They're talking about government tariffs and they've already halted new leases on offshore wind. So this isn't about government subsidizing things, it's government blocking the market from doing what it wants to.
- liontwist 2y ago
  The government isn’t subsidizing solar and wind? > They're talking about government tariffs So this has been previously unblocked, but in the past week that’s when the difficulty started?
toomuchtodo 2y ago
Utilities get to pass their costs along to ratepayers, so even when the thermal fossil generation is not economical, people who cannot go offgrid or install distributed generation and storage are hung out to dry. Every coal generator in the US besides the one in Dry Forks, WY is more expensive than new renewables to run, but those costs get pushed to ratepayers so there is no incentive to retire them faster. You can see this up close with IMEA [1] and the City of Naperville (in Illinois) about to extend their agreement to continue to procure coal fired generation with no competitive bids [2] [3]. This enables the prolonged operation of one of the most polluting coal generators in the country, Prairie State Generating Station, in southern IL [4] [5]. Compare this to the City of Chicago, that has switched to 100% renewables using a power purchase agreement for ~70% of their demand and credits for the remainder [6] [7]. So, while the economics of renewables and storage are favorable, you still have twist arms with the courts and policy because of entrenched interests that are not exposed to the costs of prolonged fossil generation. "Show me the incentives and I'll show you the outcome." [1] https://www.imea.org/ https://www.imea.org/ [2] https://saynotocoal.com/ https://saynotocoal.com/ [3] https://saynotocoal.com/naperville-gets-80-of-its-electricity-from-coal-burning-power-plants-and-the-city-is-being-asked-to-sign-an-early-extension-of-the-2-billion-contract/ https://saynotocoal.com/naperville-gets-80-of-its-electricit... [4] https://pirg.org/illinois/edfund/media-center/new-data-illinois-prairie-state-is-number-12-top-climate-polluter-in-country/ https://pirg.org/illinois/edfund/media-center/new-data-illin... [5] https://www.gem.wiki/Prairie_State_Energy_Campus https://www.gem.wiki/Prairie_State_Energy_Campus [6] https://grist.org/cities/chicago-renewable-energy-black-diamond-solar/ https://grist.org/cities/chicago-renewable-energy-black-diam... [7] https://swiftcurrentenergy.com/project/double-black-diamond-solar/ https://swiftcurrentenergy.com/project/double-black-diamond-...
- liontwist 2y ago
  every market passes costs to payers. That doesn’t explain anything. For the Chicago government, it’s a political project. They are happy to take losses. Let me just restate the original point made in this thread. Are solar and wind cheaper in these areas where coal is still operating or not?
  - 2y ago

esafak 2y ago

Big oil.

prettyStandard 2y ago

I know right? I've never heard of large projects needing upfront capital!

liontwist 2y ago
American business is very good at financing upfront capital commitments with easy to calculate returns.

vlovich123 2y ago

Remember the days America demonstrated leadership, where we got to the moon rather than waiting for someone else to figure out how to get costs down or how we lead the effort to solve the hole in the ozone layer? Pepperidge Farms remembers.

liontwist 2y ago
So it’s not a cost savings then? It’s more of a scientific achievement with patriotic spirit?
- vlovich123 2y ago
  I think you misunderstood what I said. There is value in being first to establish a dominant position as a market leader. Just focusing on costs misses the bigger issue of market domination. It's a missed opportunity UNLESS you believe that oil is the more cost effective solution in the long run. The subsidies are an investment in your country's dominance. That all the competitors believe otherwise might indicate your math may be off. Or the historically close ties between US leaders and Saudia Arabia on both sides of the aisle distorts the decision making.

matthewdgreen 2y ago

Industry is funding it, like crazy. You can look up the number of installed solar and wind plants this year, and the number of battery plants. Lots of them in red states like Texas, as well The biggest problem right now is that the new administration is trying to actively block those goals. They're talking about government tariffs and they've already halted new leases on offshore wind. So this isn't about government subsidizing things, it's government blocking the market from doing what it wants to.

liontwist 2y ago
The government isn’t subsidizing solar and wind? > They're talking about government tariffs So this has been previously unblocked, but in the past week that’s when the difficulty started?

toomuchtodo 2y ago

Utilities get to pass their costs along to ratepayers, so even when the thermal fossil generation is not economical, people who cannot go offgrid or install distributed generation and storage are hung out to dry. Every coal generator in the US besides the one in Dry Forks, WY is more expensive than new renewables to run, but those costs get pushed to ratepayers so there is no incentive to retire them faster. You can see this up close with IMEA [1] and the City of Naperville (in Illinois) about to extend their agreement to continue to procure coal fired generation with no competitive bids [2] [3]. This enables the prolonged operation of one of the most polluting coal generators in the country, Prairie State Generating Station, in southern IL [4] [5]. Compare this to the City of Chicago, that has switched to 100% renewables using a power purchase agreement for ~70% of their demand and credits for the remainder [6] [7]. So, while the economics of renewables and storage are favorable, you still have twist arms with the courts and policy because of entrenched interests that are not exposed to the costs of prolonged fossil generation. "Show me the incentives and I'll show you the outcome." [1] https://www.imea.org/ https://www.imea.org/ [2] https://saynotocoal.com/ https://saynotocoal.com/ [3] https://saynotocoal.com/naperville-gets-80-of-its-electricity-from-coal-burning-power-plants-and-the-city-is-being-asked-to-sign-an-early-extension-of-the-2-billion-contract/ https://saynotocoal.com/naperville-gets-80-of-its-electricit... [4] https://pirg.org/illinois/edfund/media-center/new-data-illinois-prairie-state-is-number-12-top-climate-polluter-in-country/ https://pirg.org/illinois/edfund/media-center/new-data-illin... [5] https://www.gem.wiki/Prairie_State_Energy_Campus https://www.gem.wiki/Prairie_State_Energy_Campus [6] https://grist.org/cities/chicago-renewable-energy-black-diamond-solar/ https://grist.org/cities/chicago-renewable-energy-black-diam... [7] https://swiftcurrentenergy.com/project/double-black-diamond-solar/ https://swiftcurrentenergy.com/project/double-black-diamond-...

liontwist 2y ago
every market passes costs to payers. That doesn’t explain anything. For the Chicago government, it’s a political project. They are happy to take losses. Let me just restate the original point made in this thread. Are solar and wind cheaper in these areas where coal is still operating or not?
- 2y ago