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Gotcha. So your answer is to break up the republic because you don’t like some of the region’s politics.

krapp 2y ago
These states and many of their citizens have been murmuring about a "cold civil war" and "peaceable secession" for decades, and a few have been flirting with secession since the actual civil war ended. They don't want to be a part of the US - or more accurately they consider only themselves to be the US, proper, and reject the authority of the Federal government as illegitimate, oppressive, and run according to cultural values which they despise. So yeah, maybe it's better to let them go than suffer having them dragging the rest of the country down with them.
- kcplate 2y ago
  …or maybe they can just vote for the change they would like at the federal level like they just did. Funny how that works in a republic like ours. If their direction doesn’t pan out, you have opportunities in 2026 and 2028 to right the ship. Of course that would mean that the democrats will actually have to provide a leader to two that can effectively communicate, motivate, and lead.
  - krapp 2y ago
    A republic doesn't work when half of the people simply vote to burn it down every four years to spite the other half. You can't just "right the ship" to correct policies this destructive. This isn't simple politics as usual.
    - kcplate 2y ago
      You are making an assumption that only half the country votes to “burn it down” and that whatever side you are on is the correct one that should be preserved. It’s possible that both sides seek to destroy the policies of the other and maybe, just maybe, neither side truly has a monopoly on what is right and correct. All I hear as an independent political thinker is two sides whining that the other is dogmatic.
      - krapp 2y ago
        You're making the common "centrist" assumption that all sides are equal and all opinions derive from dogmatism and hypocrisy, yet somehow your own comments here tend only to criticize one side while justifying the other. I don't think you're as independent as you claim.
        kcplate 2y ago
        Interesting…I literally criticized both sides equally in the comment to which you just replied. And for what it’s worth, I am pragmatic, not a centrist, which means that sometimes I might have an unbalanced view according to folks that believe “if you are not always A you must be B”
        krapp 2y ago
        You didn't actually criticize either, you just implied both sides had the same motives, goals and methods, and that both sides were whining dogmatists. There is a difference between the two. Also no one has claimed "if you are not always A you must be B," here. Again, you're just resorting to platitudes and stereotypes, no actual criticism or analysis. You haven't actually refuted any arguments with anything but blithe dismissals.
        kcplate 2y ago
        Suggesting that the two sides have the same motive, goal, and methods is a criticism. Suggesting that they are both full of whining dogmatists is a criticism. Here is your argument, since apparently you didn’t get it from the much more brief sarcasm that started this little chain: “it’s shortsighted and frankly ignorant to suggest that destroying the most powerful country ever to exist via secession is a reasonable idea just because someone is butthurt that their ‘side’ didn’t win an election this time around and we had some hurricanes and fires this year that required significant federal disaster assistance” By the way, my argument doesn’t change if it’s republicans talking secession or if the democrats are doing it. It’s a stupid idea.
toomuchtodo 2y ago
My answer is to let people who want to hurt themselves politically and economically proceed after we have collectively attempted to prevent these outcomes. If they get their vote till death, and they don't want to change their vote to anything productive, there is no other choice (as mental models are rigid and tribalism pressures are strong). Good luck to them, effort is better spent on people who actually care and investment where it is valued. > …or maybe they can just vote for the change they would like at the federal level like they just did. This is the change they voted for. If it is harmful to them, that was their choice. As Jamie Dimon said, "Get over it." Vote better next time? If the forest votes for the axe after everyone told them not to, I have no compassion when the axe starts chopping. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Woodcutter_and_the_Trees https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Woodcutter_and_the_Trees https://bsky.app/profile/briantylercohen.bsky.social/post/3lgeirb7ilk2w https://bsky.app/profile/briantylercohen.bsky.social/post/3l...
- kcplate 2y ago
  > after we have collectively attempted to prevent these outcomes Who is “we” and what did “we” do to prevent “what” outcome? Seems to me if you can answer that question you might have a clue why the forest might chose the axe.
  - toomuchtodo 2y ago
    It sounds like, from your comments, that you believe understanding these people is going to enable change. In my opinion, I believe this is unlikely when you cannot appeal to irrational voters (who google "who pays tariffs" after their vote and the election concludes, who don't want Obamacare but love their ACA insurance, who want immigrants deported but don't understand that directly correlates to inflation [wage pressure and labor supply]). So why are we going to waste time trying to pander and appeal to them? What will that change? Protect vulnerable people worth protecting, good luck to the rest while we wait for a bunch of folks to age out (~2M/year 55+ voting cohort). https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2024/07/12/10-facts-about-republicans-in-the-us/ https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2024/07/12/10-facts-... https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2024/11/13/what-trump-supporters-believe-and-expect/ https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2024/11/13/what-trum... https://www.the-independent.com/news/world/americas/us-politics/who-pays-for-tarriffs-searches-b2654174.html https://www.the-independent.com/news/world/americas/us-polit... https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2025/jan/11/there-are-a-lot-of-bitter-people-here-im-one-of-them-rust-belt-voters-on-why-they-backed-trump-again-despite-his-broken-promises https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2025/jan/11/there-are-a-...

These states and many of their citizens have been murmuring about a "cold civil war" and "peaceable secession" for decades, and a few have been flirting with secession since the actual civil war ended. They don't want to be a part of the US - or more accurately they consider only themselves to be the US, proper, and reject the authority of the Federal government as illegitimate, oppressive, and run according to cultural values which they despise. So yeah, maybe it's better to let them go than suffer having them dragging the rest of the country down with them.

kcplate 2y ago
…or maybe they can just vote for the change they would like at the federal level like they just did. Funny how that works in a republic like ours. If their direction doesn’t pan out, you have opportunities in 2026 and 2028 to right the ship. Of course that would mean that the democrats will actually have to provide a leader to two that can effectively communicate, motivate, and lead.
- krapp 2y ago
  A republic doesn't work when half of the people simply vote to burn it down every four years to spite the other half. You can't just "right the ship" to correct policies this destructive. This isn't simple politics as usual.
  - kcplate 2y ago
    You are making an assumption that only half the country votes to “burn it down” and that whatever side you are on is the correct one that should be preserved. It’s possible that both sides seek to destroy the policies of the other and maybe, just maybe, neither side truly has a monopoly on what is right and correct. All I hear as an independent political thinker is two sides whining that the other is dogmatic.
    - krapp 2y ago
      You're making the common "centrist" assumption that all sides are equal and all opinions derive from dogmatism and hypocrisy, yet somehow your own comments here tend only to criticize one side while justifying the other. I don't think you're as independent as you claim.
      - kcplate 2y ago
        Interesting…I literally criticized both sides equally in the comment to which you just replied. And for what it’s worth, I am pragmatic, not a centrist, which means that sometimes I might have an unbalanced view according to folks that believe “if you are not always A you must be B”
        krapp 2y ago
        You didn't actually criticize either, you just implied both sides had the same motives, goals and methods, and that both sides were whining dogmatists. There is a difference between the two. Also no one has claimed "if you are not always A you must be B," here. Again, you're just resorting to platitudes and stereotypes, no actual criticism or analysis. You haven't actually refuted any arguments with anything but blithe dismissals.
        kcplate 2y ago
        Suggesting that the two sides have the same motive, goal, and methods is a criticism. Suggesting that they are both full of whining dogmatists is a criticism. Here is your argument, since apparently you didn’t get it from the much more brief sarcasm that started this little chain: “it’s shortsighted and frankly ignorant to suggest that destroying the most powerful country ever to exist via secession is a reasonable idea just because someone is butthurt that their ‘side’ didn’t win an election this time around and we had some hurricanes and fires this year that required significant federal disaster assistance” By the way, my argument doesn’t change if it’s republicans talking secession or if the democrats are doing it. It’s a stupid idea.

toomuchtodo 2y ago

My answer is to let people who want to hurt themselves politically and economically proceed after we have collectively attempted to prevent these outcomes. If they get their vote till death, and they don't want to change their vote to anything productive, there is no other choice (as mental models are rigid and tribalism pressures are strong). Good luck to them, effort is better spent on people who actually care and investment where it is valued. > …or maybe they can just vote for the change they would like at the federal level like they just did. This is the change they voted for. If it is harmful to them, that was their choice. As Jamie Dimon said, "Get over it." Vote better next time? If the forest votes for the axe after everyone told them not to, I have no compassion when the axe starts chopping. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Woodcutter_and_the_Trees https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Woodcutter_and_the_Trees https://bsky.app/profile/briantylercohen.bsky.social/post/3lgeirb7ilk2w https://bsky.app/profile/briantylercohen.bsky.social/post/3l...

kcplate 2y ago
> after we have collectively attempted to prevent these outcomes Who is “we” and what did “we” do to prevent “what” outcome? Seems to me if you can answer that question you might have a clue why the forest might chose the axe.
- toomuchtodo 2y ago
  It sounds like, from your comments, that you believe understanding these people is going to enable change. In my opinion, I believe this is unlikely when you cannot appeal to irrational voters (who google "who pays tariffs" after their vote and the election concludes, who don't want Obamacare but love their ACA insurance, who want immigrants deported but don't understand that directly correlates to inflation [wage pressure and labor supply]). So why are we going to waste time trying to pander and appeal to them? What will that change? Protect vulnerable people worth protecting, good luck to the rest while we wait for a bunch of folks to age out (~2M/year 55+ voting cohort). https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2024/07/12/10-facts-about-republicans-in-the-us/ https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2024/07/12/10-facts-... https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2024/11/13/what-trump-supporters-believe-and-expect/ https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2024/11/13/what-trum... https://www.the-independent.com/news/world/americas/us-politics/who-pays-for-tarriffs-searches-b2654174.html https://www.the-independent.com/news/world/americas/us-polit... https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2025/jan/11/there-are-a-lot-of-bitter-people-here-im-one-of-them-rust-belt-voters-on-why-they-backed-trump-again-despite-his-broken-promises https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2025/jan/11/there-are-a-...