4 ms·

The author’s answer was clever, but also unconventional. The company was probably looking for someone that would write code in a shared codebase that other dev

by tcbawo 2y ago

The author’s answer was clever, but also unconventional. The company was probably looking for someone that would write code in a shared codebase that other developers will need to contribute to and maintain. Thinking outside the box and not following suggestions might have raised a red flag that this person might be a loose cannon. In a small company, hiring someone smart but unwilling to follow directions can be detrimental. Kudos to the author, though, for being quick thinking and creative.

xnickb 2y ago
Then that expectation should be communicated clearly, not via some obscure passive aggressive subtones, don't you find?
- a1j9o94 2y ago
  Ideally yes, but most people in corporate settings don't communicate clearly. So if they have a culture of dropping hints, and you don't take them you're not going to do well at the company. It's not good, but it's an accurate reflection of the work environment.
Angostura 2y ago
Then don't say" "the interviewer noted that I could even use esoteric programming languages but advised me against because there would be lots of rules that would be hard to follow"
- dijksterhuis 2y ago
  this is a good filter. if someone starts careening through the task using brainfuck, they ain’t thinking like a senior dev at day job i.e. simple, clear, easy to follow and maintainable code writing. i don’t care how clever you are. i need to know you’re not going to rewrite the frontend in your first week because of a “big brain” moment [0]. using python or something simple without being told to helps me feel like you won’t do that, and that i might be able to trust you on day 0. expectations on seniors are higher [0]: https://grugbrain.dev/ https://grugbrain.dev/
constantcrying 2y ago
Then ask. Ask the candidate if he has experience in some teams, ask what he would do if someone else was challenging his technical decisions. Ask him what he would do if he was ordered to do something which he believes was a bad technical decision. Instead of talking the company relies on easily misinterpreted hints that he might or might not be someone able to work in a team. People can be both self confident and able to create a cheeky solution and be sociable people with decent team skills. If your hiring process relies on psycho analysis of the candidates, it probably will not work very well.
- darkwater 2y ago
  Agree as a general rule BUT candidates can (and some WILL) lie to those questions. See how they react naturally although in a simulated scenario can give you a better idea. But you should do both things, probably in 2 different interviews.
  - bluGill 2y ago
    There is plenty of research on interviews and how to prevent them - or so the interview trainers hr made me take classes from before I was allowed to interview anyone. disscussions here universially show no evidence anyone knows it exists much less what it is. I at least know it evists but I don't know how to find it
  - phlakaton 2y ago
    I think the lie is in thinking FizzBuzz is going to give you any insight into such matters. Put aside your paranoia and just talk to your candidates. Ask them thoughtful questions that invite thoughtful answers. Probe gently to get at more challenging questions. Trust your ability to discern when they're BSing you.
- yujzgzc 2y ago
  Even in the candidate's own telling, it is obvious that they misread very strong signals from interviewers. I've sometimes been that overly clever programmer and I've had to deal with it too, on the one side it's great that they bring energy and brains, but it is exhausting. At some point when moving fast you just want to have some people that you can go "hey just fix this bug wouldya" and trust that they're not going to come back with a clever but convoluted and inefficient hack.
bartread 2y ago
Exactly. On one level I loved this solution but it’s definitely “clever code” and, unless there is a particularly strong requirement driving it (e.g., performance), I don’t particularly like clever code in production systems. The problem of “What does this do?” is prevalent enough, and occurs often enough under pressure, without adding excessive niftiness into the mix. I do still like the solution though.
makeitdouble 2y ago
Yes. Also, this still properly fits the "you're interviewing the company as well" paradigm. If the author wanted a company that values cleverness or can deal with people who go unbeaten paths, they now know it wasn't the right place.
nmfisher 2y ago
Normally I’d give the company the benefit of the doubt for the reasons you point out, but not in this case. If you’re asking increasingly convoluted/unrealistic/impractical questions, you can’t complain that the response wasn’t practical. It gives off strong “your answer might be correct but it’s not on my answer key so I’m marking you wrong” teacher vibes. Avoid at all costs.
whstl 2y ago
The interview was also very clever and unconventional. "Numeric types, number literals and their associated methods and operations are forbidden". If this is how the interview behaved, I'm pretty sure this is a company that expects developers to write code in a certain way but doesn't really know how to guide them. Kudos to the author, but shame on the interviewer.

by tcbawo 2y ago

xnickb 2y ago

Then that expectation should be communicated clearly, not via some obscure passive aggressive subtones, don't you find?

a1j9o94 2y ago
Ideally yes, but most people in corporate settings don't communicate clearly. So if they have a culture of dropping hints, and you don't take them you're not going to do well at the company. It's not good, but it's an accurate reflection of the work environment.

Angostura 2y ago

Then don't say" "the interviewer noted that I could even use esoteric programming languages but advised me against because there would be lots of rules that would be hard to follow"

dijksterhuis 2y ago
this is a good filter. if someone starts careening through the task using brainfuck, they ain’t thinking like a senior dev at day job i.e. simple, clear, easy to follow and maintainable code writing. i don’t care how clever you are. i need to know you’re not going to rewrite the frontend in your first week because of a “big brain” moment [0]. using python or something simple without being told to helps me feel like you won’t do that, and that i might be able to trust you on day 0. expectations on seniors are higher [0]: https://grugbrain.dev/ https://grugbrain.dev/

constantcrying 2y ago

Then ask. Ask the candidate if he has experience in some teams, ask what he would do if someone else was challenging his technical decisions. Ask him what he would do if he was ordered to do something which he believes was a bad technical decision. Instead of talking the company relies on easily misinterpreted hints that he might or might not be someone able to work in a team. People can be both self confident and able to create a cheeky solution and be sociable people with decent team skills. If your hiring process relies on psycho analysis of the candidates, it probably will not work very well.

darkwater 2y ago
Agree as a general rule BUT candidates can (and some WILL) lie to those questions. See how they react naturally although in a simulated scenario can give you a better idea. But you should do both things, probably in 2 different interviews.
- bluGill 2y ago
  There is plenty of research on interviews and how to prevent them - or so the interview trainers hr made me take classes from before I was allowed to interview anyone. disscussions here universially show no evidence anyone knows it exists much less what it is. I at least know it evists but I don't know how to find it
- phlakaton 2y ago
  I think the lie is in thinking FizzBuzz is going to give you any insight into such matters. Put aside your paranoia and just talk to your candidates. Ask them thoughtful questions that invite thoughtful answers. Probe gently to get at more challenging questions. Trust your ability to discern when they're BSing you.
yujzgzc 2y ago
Even in the candidate's own telling, it is obvious that they misread very strong signals from interviewers. I've sometimes been that overly clever programmer and I've had to deal with it too, on the one side it's great that they bring energy and brains, but it is exhausting. At some point when moving fast you just want to have some people that you can go "hey just fix this bug wouldya" and trust that they're not going to come back with a clever but convoluted and inefficient hack.

bartread 2y ago

Exactly. On one level I loved this solution but it’s definitely “clever code” and, unless there is a particularly strong requirement driving it (e.g., performance), I don’t particularly like clever code in production systems. The problem of “What does this do?” is prevalent enough, and occurs often enough under pressure, without adding excessive niftiness into the mix. I do still like the solution though.

makeitdouble 2y ago

Yes. Also, this still properly fits the "you're interviewing the company as well" paradigm. If the author wanted a company that values cleverness or can deal with people who go unbeaten paths, they now know it wasn't the right place.

nmfisher 2y ago

Normally I’d give the company the benefit of the doubt for the reasons you point out, but not in this case. If you’re asking increasingly convoluted/unrealistic/impractical questions, you can’t complain that the response wasn’t practical. It gives off strong “your answer might be correct but it’s not on my answer key so I’m marking you wrong” teacher vibes. Avoid at all costs.

whstl 2y ago

The interview was also very clever and unconventional. "Numeric types, number literals and their associated methods and operations are forbidden". If this is how the interview behaved, I'm pretty sure this is a company that expects developers to write code in a certain way but doesn't really know how to guide them. Kudos to the author, but shame on the interviewer.