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by Timon3 2y ago
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- Jensson 2y agoI've never seen a Nazi salute that didn't have a stiff upper body, he was just flailing around. At best you could call that a caricature of a Nazi salute, kinda like Springtime for Hitler.
- Timon3 2y agoI won't go and find counter examples, because a) I disagree that he was just "flailing around" (you can literally see him tense up), and b) I disagree that the Nazi salute requires some specific level of upper body stiffness. There are plenty of videos where literally Hitler makes the same motions with a similar posture. He still hasn't even denied it, has he?
- Jensson 2y ago[flagged]
- Timon3 2y ago> You want it to be a Nazi salute, that is all I hear. That's fine with me, but you should be aware that you're breaking the site guidelines in doing so: "Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith." > Why should he deny it when he is obviously not a Nazi? Why would it matter whether he is a Nazi, when the question is whether he did a Nazi salute? You and I aren't Nazis, yet we could both do a Nazi salute right now. I also reject your premise that he's "obviously not a Nazi" - you'd have a great point if he didn't agree with Nazi talking points[0], and didn't give both platform and reach to Nazis, and so many other Nazi-adjacent fauxpas over the last months. But that's not relevant to the discussion, so let's not retread those grounds, okay? [0]: https://x.com/elonmusk/status/1724908287471272299 https://x.com/elonmusk/status/1724908287471272299
- Jensson 2y ago> That's fine with me, but you should be aware that you're breaking the site guidelines in doing so: "Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith." I can't find any other reason why you think a Nazi salute is that sloppy, as otherwise you see people do Nazi salutes all the time. Nazi salutes are illegal in parts of the world, if you are going to prosecute someone for it then it needs to be way clearer marked than what he did. If he combined it with "Heil Hitler", or did it with a stiff upper body and/or left the arm staying in final position for a few seconds like fascists liked, then sure, but he did neither of those things. Why else would people want to call that a Nazi salute when it is so far from the real thing? It is such a strong accusation to make, and similar motions are so easy and common that you should assume innocence's here unless it is extremely clear.
- computerthings 2y ago> Why else would people want to call that a Nazi salute when it is so far from the real thing? If you ask "why do they want to call it that" instead of "why do they call it that" you're already not asking in good faith. > It is such a strong accusation to make I would call it an observation rather than an accusation. "you only see it because you want to see it", now that is an accusation, one you have no argument for other than what could be considered a skill issue ("can't find any other reason") and against nobody can defend themselves. > similar motions are so easy and common Show me a similar motion that is common. And then there's Musk's support of the AfD, and how he's calling everyone who doesn't think he's funny a "leftist extremist". He, in word and deed, is a fascist. The salute doesn't even add anything meaningful. It still is that salute however.
- Jensson 2y ago> Show me a similar motion that is common. Musk just showed it there. Fascist loved their stiffness, by tilting his head and curving his body like that it is clearly not a fascist salute, if you look at photos of people doing it they wouldn't disgrace Hitler by doing it like that. > If you ask "why do they want to call it that" instead of "why do they call it that" you're already not asking in good faith. Ok you are right, I should have assumed you were ignorant instead of malicious, which I started out with. But when you said that you want to see it as a Nazi salute even when evidence that it wasn't, then it there isn't any other option left. You wont find footage of Nazis doing the salute like that, since they didn't. And Hitler did his own versions that was just waving back, that doesn't mean that waving is a Hitler salute. But you see everyone else there standing stiffly and straight, not at all Like Musk. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/93/Bundesarchiv_Bild_183-J00282%2C_Berlin%2C_Hitler_im_Sportpalast.jpg https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/93/Bundesar... > And then there's Musk's support of the AfD, and how he's calling everyone who doesn't think he's funny a "leftist extremist". He, in word and deed, is a fascist. The salute doesn't even add anything meaningful. It still is that salute however. So you were already biased into seeing Musk as a Nazi, that makes you a terrible judge of whether this is a Nazi salute. This answers my question.
- ConspiracyFact 2y ago[flagged]
- ConspiracyFact 2y agohttps://pbs.twimg.com/media/GhyrpXcaIAAVs3W?format=jpg&name=small https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GhyrpXcaIAAVs3W?format=jpg&name=...
- Timon3 2y agoI think you know that it's not about one still photo, but about the whole gesture. In case you're acting in good faith and didn't know: it's about the whole gesture. If you want to argue that politicians have made the same gesture, you need to provide videos showing the whole gesture.
- ConspiracyFact 2y ago[flagged]
- Timon3 2y agoIf you don't mind me asking: what do you hope to achieve with your approach to discussion? You're throwing around insults, bad faith replies and fallacies left and right. No matter what your motivations are, you would convince more people if you responded in a respectful and intellectually curious way. So why do you choose this approach on this site?
- ConspiracyFact 2y ago[flagged]
- dang 2y ago"Don't feed egregious comments by replying; flag them instead." https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- Timon3 2y agoYou're right, sorry.