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What about the London tube/bus suicide bombings: those were domestic terrorism and elicited a distinctly different response than we're seeing in Norway now. Or

by nfg 14y ago

What about the London tube/bus suicide bombings: those were domestic terrorism and elicited a distinctly different response than we're seeing in Norway now. Or is it only domestic terrorism when the perpetrators are white one wonders!

praptak 14y ago
> Or is it only domestic terrorism when the perpetrators are white one wonders! Of course the race (and religion) plays a huge role in the emotional reaction to violence. Uncomparatively more so than the technical "domestic/external" categorization based on residence, citizenship and whatnot. Race and religion are the top factors in eliciting the "us vs them" reaction.
- berntb 14y ago
  Race isn't the problem, I believe. If Breivik was a convert to Islam, then the reaction would have been different: He would have been taken seriously, not seen as a crazy "one hit wonder". Because of, well, the few right wing crazies in Europe the last few decades.
  - ktizo 14y ago
    It does seem to be the case in much of the media reporting, that with white supremacist terrorists, the loner aspect is generally played up, where as with those of a somewhat darker hue, grand conspiracy and existential threat is more on the agenda.
    - berntb 14y ago
      Which I acknowledged. There are no suburbs, in Scandinavia at least, filled with young rightwing extremists getting radicalized.
      - morsch 14y ago
        Really? Cause there are such suburbs all over Europe and I'm pretty sure our local neo-nazi rally also draws buses from Scandinavia.
        berntb 14y ago
        Sigh, you can find neonazis in Israel(!), that doesn't imply those idiots are numerous. (The left wing idiots (AFA et al) seems to be more numerous.) The Norwegians, for good reason, doesn't expect repeated attempts by right wing extremists every year in the future. In Scandinavia, lately we can look forward to such terrorism attempts every year from the islamists... Edit: morsch, I was not talking about Germany! But ok, a simple point. East Germany was a dictatorship; intolerance and conspiracy theories grows in those. As I understand, it was much worse to e.g. have the wrong skin color there 20 years ago.
        morsch 14y ago
        I think you're greatly underestimating the problem of neo-nazi (youth) culture in Europe. I don't really care to derail the discussion by comparing it to other political movements, but the German government estimates there are 6000 violent neo-nazis in Germany, and that number is probably low-balling it considerably, I'd say it's an order of magnitude higher than that. Neo-nazis incidents are absolutely a daily thing, even if they don't manifest the same scale as Utoya but rather in mundane assault and vandalism. Furthermore, our news are just now dominated by a case of domestic neo-nazi terrorism that includes the assassination of 9 people and several bombings. The case has already resulted in massive political upheaval because of the bizarre involvement of the intelligence services. [0] And this is in a country where right-wing extremist and populist parties rarely get more than a few percent in elections, unlike seemingly half of Europe. For instance, what's going on in Hungary is just disturbing, and things could go crazy all over Europe if/when the economic situation takes a sudden turn down. (Edit: Added a few sentences regarding the current case of domestic right-wing terrorism in Germany.) [0] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Socialist_Underground http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Socialist_Underground
      - 14y ago
  - berntb 14y ago
    I realised why people started arguing with me. :-) I wrote that Europe has few right wing crazies in the last few decades. I meant Scandinavia, I have no real interest/clue where different types of extremists are numerous. Hrm, sorry about that.
maayank 14y ago
Good call. I would say that in public perception, since there is an international jihad underway (again, narratively speaking) it is easy to label the tubes bombings as non-domestic. If there was the perception of a global right-wing/fascist war on western society underway then perhaps the Norwegian massacre would have been seen differently. Any Brit here caring to comment on British public perception of the tubes bombing? Would you say it's considered domestic terrorism in Britain? Please chime in. EDIT: in any case, while this IS an interesting discussion (about the tubes), British reaction to terrorism does not reflect on the original comparison and points, so far anyway. Just want to mark different discussions and tangents as different.
- justincormack 14y ago
  There was a small international link with the tube bombings (overseas terrorist training). But I think the differences are more to do with the fact that London has always had terrorism, some foreign some domestic, and reacts differently anyway. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_terrorist_incidents_in_London http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_terrorist_incidents_in_...
deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
carerra 14y ago
Not domestic at all. Were those responsible for the tube and bus bombings not immigrants with training elsewhere? Hardly domestic in the sense that 9/11 was domestic. Norway's atrocity was a committed by a lone wolf. The only connection is that he was a fundamentalist, in the same way the American ultra-right party and the Taliban are. That is the global threat to open democracies, now and in the future.
mseebach 14y ago
Domestic with respect to the motive and perspective of the perpetrators. 9/11 and 7/7 had elaborate international and geopolitical motivations, from the perspective of foreign victims of respectively US and British foreign policy.
cmdkeen 14y ago
London (and the rest of the UK) had religious terrorism for over 30 years - with regular attacks by professionally trained terrorists of a kind AQ would love to have. Yet even with all that Islamic Fundamentalist terrorism apparently required a massive increase in state power... The difference seems to be the same as with car v plane crashes. Kill lots of people over time v many at once and society reacts very differently, even though the first kills more.

by nfg 14y ago

praptak 14y ago

> Or is it only domestic terrorism when the perpetrators are white one wonders! Of course the race (and religion) plays a huge role in the emotional reaction to violence. Uncomparatively more so than the technical "domestic/external" categorization based on residence, citizenship and whatnot. Race and religion are the top factors in eliciting the "us vs them" reaction.

berntb 14y ago
Race isn't the problem, I believe. If Breivik was a convert to Islam, then the reaction would have been different: He would have been taken seriously, not seen as a crazy "one hit wonder". Because of, well, the few right wing crazies in Europe the last few decades.
- ktizo 14y ago
  It does seem to be the case in much of the media reporting, that with white supremacist terrorists, the loner aspect is generally played up, where as with those of a somewhat darker hue, grand conspiracy and existential threat is more on the agenda.
  - berntb 14y ago
    Which I acknowledged. There are no suburbs, in Scandinavia at least, filled with young rightwing extremists getting radicalized.
    - morsch 14y ago
      Really? Cause there are such suburbs all over Europe and I'm pretty sure our local neo-nazi rally also draws buses from Scandinavia.
      - berntb 14y ago
        Sigh, you can find neonazis in Israel(!), that doesn't imply those idiots are numerous. (The left wing idiots (AFA et al) seems to be more numerous.) The Norwegians, for good reason, doesn't expect repeated attempts by right wing extremists every year in the future. In Scandinavia, lately we can look forward to such terrorism attempts every year from the islamists... Edit: morsch, I was not talking about Germany! But ok, a simple point. East Germany was a dictatorship; intolerance and conspiracy theories grows in those. As I understand, it was much worse to e.g. have the wrong skin color there 20 years ago.
        morsch 14y ago
        I think you're greatly underestimating the problem of neo-nazi (youth) culture in Europe. I don't really care to derail the discussion by comparing it to other political movements, but the German government estimates there are 6000 violent neo-nazis in Germany, and that number is probably low-balling it considerably, I'd say it's an order of magnitude higher than that. Neo-nazis incidents are absolutely a daily thing, even if they don't manifest the same scale as Utoya but rather in mundane assault and vandalism. Furthermore, our news are just now dominated by a case of domestic neo-nazi terrorism that includes the assassination of 9 people and several bombings. The case has already resulted in massive political upheaval because of the bizarre involvement of the intelligence services. [0] And this is in a country where right-wing extremist and populist parties rarely get more than a few percent in elections, unlike seemingly half of Europe. For instance, what's going on in Hungary is just disturbing, and things could go crazy all over Europe if/when the economic situation takes a sudden turn down. (Edit: Added a few sentences regarding the current case of domestic right-wing terrorism in Germany.) [0] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Socialist_Underground http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Socialist_Underground
    - 14y ago
- berntb 14y ago
  I realised why people started arguing with me. :-) I wrote that Europe has few right wing crazies in the last few decades. I meant Scandinavia, I have no real interest/clue where different types of extremists are numerous. Hrm, sorry about that.

maayank 14y ago

Good call. I would say that in public perception, since there is an international jihad underway (again, narratively speaking) it is easy to label the tubes bombings as non-domestic. If there was the perception of a global right-wing/fascist war on western society underway then perhaps the Norwegian massacre would have been seen differently. Any Brit here caring to comment on British public perception of the tubes bombing? Would you say it's considered domestic terrorism in Britain? Please chime in. EDIT: in any case, while this IS an interesting discussion (about the tubes), British reaction to terrorism does not reflect on the original comparison and points, so far anyway. Just want to mark different discussions and tangents as different.

justincormack 14y ago
There was a small international link with the tube bombings (overseas terrorist training). But I think the differences are more to do with the fact that London has always had terrorism, some foreign some domestic, and reacts differently anyway. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_terrorist_incidents_in_London http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_terrorist_incidents_in_...

deleted 14y ago

[deleted]

carerra 14y ago

Not domestic at all. Were those responsible for the tube and bus bombings not immigrants with training elsewhere? Hardly domestic in the sense that 9/11 was domestic. Norway's atrocity was a committed by a lone wolf. The only connection is that he was a fundamentalist, in the same way the American ultra-right party and the Taliban are. That is the global threat to open democracies, now and in the future.

mseebach 14y ago

Domestic with respect to the motive and perspective of the perpetrators. 9/11 and 7/7 had elaborate international and geopolitical motivations, from the perspective of foreign victims of respectively US and British foreign policy.

cmdkeen 14y ago

London (and the rest of the UK) had religious terrorism for over 30 years - with regular attacks by professionally trained terrorists of a kind AQ would love to have. Yet even with all that Islamic Fundamentalist terrorism apparently required a massive increase in state power... The difference seems to be the same as with car v plane crashes. Kill lots of people over time v many at once and society reacts very differently, even though the first kills more.