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Train technology is so behind compared to road electric vehicles. Companies that build train batteries have been trying to sell to us (car OEMs) lately, and we

Train technology is so behind compared to road electric vehicles. Companies that build train batteries have been trying to sell to us (car OEMs) lately, and we look at the battery specs and battery management system capabilities and go uhhhh… On the motor and control fronts as well.

s0rce 2y ago
Why? Just build more trains any train infrastructure is so much better than cars, they barely need improvement, they just need to be built
- aetherspawn 2y ago
  But for example if they used PMM squirrel cage motors etc, they would be nice and smooth, cheaper to build, more energy efficient. On the battery front, using car-style or truck-style EV battery modules would be more robust and would reduce cost by somewhere in the order of 50%. Instead, most trains still use induction motors (this is the high pitch whine you hear) and many train battery designs use industrial style rack mount batteries, with screw terminals, controlled by a massive PLC cabinet. In eMobility the controls are handled by a small safety-rated microcontroller.
  - adgjlsfhk1 2y ago
    What are you talking about? The noise you hear from trains is the wheels. Battery trains basically don't exist because of this cool invention called a wire and pantograph.
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
    - aetherspawn 2y ago
      The “nice smooth trains” that commenters are talking about use a pantograph, transformer and small on-board battery, and can go a small distance (few kms) through tunnels and between track segments with the pantograph lowered. The power system after the battery is similar to older model electric vehicles.
      - Symbiote 2y ago
        There's no battery for the motors. A train can easily coast through a tunnel etc without any power. (There will be a battery for lights etc.)
    - numpad0 2y ago
      Electric commuter trains has coil whines, same thing as spaceship sounds Teslas make when launched https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i0B2bvd9rFQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i0B2bvd9rFQ
  - saagarjha 2y ago
    Caltrain is plenty smooth, have you ridden it recently?
  - numpad0 2y ago
    They care a lot more about robustness, maintenance, max continuous power, than cost, volume, or short duration ratings. Commuter trains are used for a decade and half, then sold to developing nation to be used couple more. No surprise that they're choose rack batteries with thick cables to bus bars over plastic packs in trays, if they even consider using degradable batteries at all.
  - macbr 2y ago
    Developing a new train platform takes a lot of time but Siemen’s Velaro Novo platform (in development since 2013 and presented 2018) uses PMM motors[1]. Siemens has been trialing PMM motors since at least 2003[2]. [1] https://www.railjournal.com/in_depth/velaro-evolution/ https://www.railjournal.com/in_depth/velaro-evolution/ [2] https://www.ew.tu-darmstadt.de/media/ew/rd/ew_vortraege/030512_binder_koch_joeckel_traktion.pdf https://www.ew.tu-darmstadt.de/media/ew/rd/ew_vortraege/0305...
- inglor_cz 2y ago
  The fundamental problem with any infrastructure today is that a) it works better in a densely populated territory, b) but the more people around, the more NIMBY cliques to throw sand into the permiting process, usually abusing environmental protections to do so. If the new Trump administration defangs NEPA reviews just a bit - and I see no evidence that the original intent behind NEPA was to delay everything everywhere by decades - it might help, but a powerful YIMBY movement would be even better.

s0rce 2y ago

Why? Just build more trains any train infrastructure is so much better than cars, they barely need improvement, they just need to be built

aetherspawn 2y ago
But for example if they used PMM squirrel cage motors etc, they would be nice and smooth, cheaper to build, more energy efficient. On the battery front, using car-style or truck-style EV battery modules would be more robust and would reduce cost by somewhere in the order of 50%. Instead, most trains still use induction motors (this is the high pitch whine you hear) and many train battery designs use industrial style rack mount batteries, with screw terminals, controlled by a massive PLC cabinet. In eMobility the controls are handled by a small safety-rated microcontroller.
- adgjlsfhk1 2y ago
  What are you talking about? The noise you hear from trains is the wheels. Battery trains basically don't exist because of this cool invention called a wire and pantograph.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - aetherspawn 2y ago
    The “nice smooth trains” that commenters are talking about use a pantograph, transformer and small on-board battery, and can go a small distance (few kms) through tunnels and between track segments with the pantograph lowered. The power system after the battery is similar to older model electric vehicles.
    - Symbiote 2y ago
      There's no battery for the motors. A train can easily coast through a tunnel etc without any power. (There will be a battery for lights etc.)
  - numpad0 2y ago
    Electric commuter trains has coil whines, same thing as spaceship sounds Teslas make when launched https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i0B2bvd9rFQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i0B2bvd9rFQ
- saagarjha 2y ago
  Caltrain is plenty smooth, have you ridden it recently?
- numpad0 2y ago
  They care a lot more about robustness, maintenance, max continuous power, than cost, volume, or short duration ratings. Commuter trains are used for a decade and half, then sold to developing nation to be used couple more. No surprise that they're choose rack batteries with thick cables to bus bars over plastic packs in trays, if they even consider using degradable batteries at all.
- macbr 2y ago
  Developing a new train platform takes a lot of time but Siemen’s Velaro Novo platform (in development since 2013 and presented 2018) uses PMM motors[1]. Siemens has been trialing PMM motors since at least 2003[2]. [1] https://www.railjournal.com/in_depth/velaro-evolution/ https://www.railjournal.com/in_depth/velaro-evolution/ [2] https://www.ew.tu-darmstadt.de/media/ew/rd/ew_vortraege/030512_binder_koch_joeckel_traktion.pdf https://www.ew.tu-darmstadt.de/media/ew/rd/ew_vortraege/0305...
inglor_cz 2y ago
The fundamental problem with any infrastructure today is that a) it works better in a densely populated territory, b) but the more people around, the more NIMBY cliques to throw sand into the permiting process, usually abusing environmental protections to do so. If the new Trump administration defangs NEPA reviews just a bit - and I see no evidence that the original intent behind NEPA was to delay everything everywhere by decades - it might help, but a powerful YIMBY movement would be even better.