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And yet solar parks must be remotely turned off mid day in summer by a grid operator in Germany to stabilize grid. It’s 8 PM here in Germany, already dark and g

by lnsru 2y ago

And yet solar parks must be remotely turned off mid day in summer by a grid operator in Germany to stabilize grid. It’s 8 PM here in Germany, already dark and gas with coal were used to generate 39% today’s electricity. Maybe it’s power accumulation capacity what’s needed and not more renewables.

philipkglass 2y ago
If optimizing for CO2 reduction, the key metric is marginal cost per unit of low-emissions electricity. If battery storage charged by clean energy has a lifetime cost per megawatt hour of $150 while solar PV has a lifetime cost of $50 per megawatt hour, it's more cost effective to keep building (and curtailing) solar until more than 2/3 of annual solar generation needs to be discarded.
- meatmanek 2y ago
  Storage gets more economically feasible when power input gets cheaper, too. If you've got a bunch of solar power that you have to shut off in the middle of the day, it doesn't really matter if that pumped-hydro storage option only gives you about 75% of your energy back, that's 75% that you would've thrown away anyway.
  - kyriakos 2y ago
    That's assuming you live in a place with abundance of water to use for energy storage. I live in a very dry place and this is a serious issue, government keeps burning diesel and shutting down both solar parks and residential PV during daytime in winter because it's sunny and not very cold.
toomuchtodo 2y ago
Everywhere in Europe needs more batteries except France [1] (which is already hitting 95% low carbon for electrical generation with nuclear and renewables; their interconnectors are already at capacity and unlikely the add capacity within the next five years). Spain and Portugal already have mostly low carbon grids (as well as the UK powered primarily with wind), but grids get dirtier as you go east [2]. I am somewhat stumped why Europe has not fast tracked battery production, as China did, and the US did late with the Inflation Reduction Act. Something to solve for if you don't want to be beholden to China or US battery supply chains and availability. [1] France’s 2024 Power Grid Was 95% Fossil Free as Nuclear, Renewables Jumped - https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2025-01-20/france-s-2024-power-grid-was-95-fossil-free-as-nuclear-renewables-jumped https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2025-01-20/france-s-... | https://archive.today/Spmqf https://archive.today/Spmqf - Jan 2025 [2] https://app.electricitymaps.com/map/72h/hourly https://app.electricitymaps.com/map/72h/hourly
- anttisalmela 2y ago
  I don't think Nordics will be needing much batteries, Norway and Sweden have so much hydropower that can absorb fluctuations in the power production and usage. But there still will be a lot installed alongside new renewable sites, you can use them to optimize the grid connections.
etrautmann 2y ago
These aren't alternatives, we can do both. Do you have a viable idea for widespread power accumulation capacity? Grid batteries or pumped water?
- lnsru 2y ago
  Pumped water is nice, but it would be a large infrastructure project. Current government system is mostly not very good at large infrastructure projects. So more feasible alternative is batteries. Preferably European made redox flow batteries.

by lnsru 2y ago

philipkglass 2y ago

If optimizing for CO2 reduction, the key metric is marginal cost per unit of low-emissions electricity. If battery storage charged by clean energy has a lifetime cost per megawatt hour of $150 while solar PV has a lifetime cost of $50 per megawatt hour, it's more cost effective to keep building (and curtailing) solar until more than 2/3 of annual solar generation needs to be discarded.

meatmanek 2y ago
Storage gets more economically feasible when power input gets cheaper, too. If you've got a bunch of solar power that you have to shut off in the middle of the day, it doesn't really matter if that pumped-hydro storage option only gives you about 75% of your energy back, that's 75% that you would've thrown away anyway.
- kyriakos 2y ago
  That's assuming you live in a place with abundance of water to use for energy storage. I live in a very dry place and this is a serious issue, government keeps burning diesel and shutting down both solar parks and residential PV during daytime in winter because it's sunny and not very cold.

toomuchtodo 2y ago

Everywhere in Europe needs more batteries except France [1] (which is already hitting 95% low carbon for electrical generation with nuclear and renewables; their interconnectors are already at capacity and unlikely the add capacity within the next five years). Spain and Portugal already have mostly low carbon grids (as well as the UK powered primarily with wind), but grids get dirtier as you go east [2]. I am somewhat stumped why Europe has not fast tracked battery production, as China did, and the US did late with the Inflation Reduction Act. Something to solve for if you don't want to be beholden to China or US battery supply chains and availability. [1] France’s 2024 Power Grid Was 95% Fossil Free as Nuclear, Renewables Jumped - https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2025-01-20/france-s-2024-power-grid-was-95-fossil-free-as-nuclear-renewables-jumped https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2025-01-20/france-s-... | https://archive.today/Spmqf https://archive.today/Spmqf - Jan 2025 [2] https://app.electricitymaps.com/map/72h/hourly https://app.electricitymaps.com/map/72h/hourly

anttisalmela 2y ago
I don't think Nordics will be needing much batteries, Norway and Sweden have so much hydropower that can absorb fluctuations in the power production and usage. But there still will be a lot installed alongside new renewable sites, you can use them to optimize the grid connections.

etrautmann 2y ago

These aren't alternatives, we can do both. Do you have a viable idea for widespread power accumulation capacity? Grid batteries or pumped water?

lnsru 2y ago
Pumped water is nice, but it would be a large infrastructure project. Current government system is mostly not very good at large infrastructure projects. So more feasible alternative is batteries. Preferably European made redox flow batteries.