5 ms·

Well, self-driving buses are definitely more likely to happen than self-driving general-purpose vehicles (due to buses already having predefined routes and ofte

Well, self-driving buses are definitely more likely to happen than self-driving general-purpose vehicles (due to buses already having predefined routes and often dedicated infrastructure), but which problem are we trying to solve here, exactly? "Bus driver" is not exactly a high-paying job, yet one that is important for social cohesion: passenger safety and informal surveillance of roads and neighborhoods sure are crucial! When it comes to anything 'self-driving', the main goal should be to reduce road traffic and neighborhood pollution-by-parking-spaces. This does nothing for either purpose.

whimsicalism 2y ago
"informal surveillance of roads" - doubt
- antithesis-nl 2y ago
  Really? "There's a blown-down tree here"... "Someone ran into this lamp post"... "This traffic sign has been vandalized"... "There's someone parked on the grass"... That's all without value?
  - whimsicalism 2y ago
    i just do not think bus drivers where i live are doing that except maybe for the tree - you live in the US?
    - antithesis-nl 2y ago
      Nope. Does my HN user name give any hints? Over here, bus drivers (and taxi drivers, ironically, despite being not exactly being law-abiding-as-a-class) account for, like, two thirds of all non-urgent-law-enforcement calls.
  - xnx 2y ago
    If you think surveillance is valuable, you should love 360 video recorded by self-driving vehicles which travel all streets in a city, not just fixed routes.
    - antithesis-nl 2y ago
      Yeah, I think surveillance is valuable. Do you think 'surveillance' is always bad? Like: nobody should mention the tree blocking the road, because, well... the implications?
      - whimsicalism 2y ago
        no pretty sure their point is entirely earnest that cameras would be better for the articulated goals
      - xnx 2y ago
        > Do you think 'surveillance' is always bad? No. I would love for there to be many times more traffic cameras and license plate readers. Video-footage from self-driving vehicles could go a long way to getting dangerous drivers off of the road.
        antithesis-nl 2y ago
        Sorry to burst your bubble in that case, but "getting dangerous drivers off the road" isn't going to happen. Actual case study, maybe slightly summarized an exaggerated: -Prosecution: here is a video of Defendant repeatedly running over several pedestrians -Defense: it was late at night, visibility was really low, and, besides, my client was very drunk. And they really, really need their car and license for their job! They would be ruined otherwise! -Judge: well, good points, are we missing something here? -Prosecution: They. Ran. Over. Several. Pedestrians. Forwards, then backwards! -Judge: yeah, OK, sure, they should cover the immediate medical costs for those unfortunate bystanders, but other than that I order a safe-driving course, 12 months of alcohol interlock and 36 months of suspended license revocation that nobody will care about, ever. Next case!
xnx 2y ago
> "Bus driver" is not exactly a high-paying job In my city, 70% of the operating budget is labor. > passenger safety An excellent way to ensure passenger safety is not to share an enclosed space with someone dangerous. > When it comes to anything 'self-driving', the main goals should be to reduce road traffic and neighborhood pollution-by-parking-spaces. When it comes to transportation systems, the goals should be: safety, utility, reliability, convenience, speed, flexibility, efficiency, environmental impact (pollution, noise, etc.).
- antithesis-nl 2y ago
  > In my city, 70% of the operating budget is labor Link? Because, well, your city is certainly special! Unless, like, you group things like 'pension liabilities', and 'insurance involving personnel' under 'labor', which is... creative but not accurate.
  - xnx 2y ago
    "Labor" $1.3 billion of $1.8 billion budget: https://www.civicfed.org/civic-federation/blog/cta%E2%80%99s-fy2023-18-billion-operating-budget-approved https://www.civicfed.org/civic-federation/blog/cta%E2%80%99s...
    - antithesis-nl 2y ago
      [flagged]
      - xnx 2y ago
        I didn't want to link to a PDF, but here you go (PDF page 41): https://www.transitchicago.com/assets/1/6/FY2025_CTA_Budget_Book.pdf https://www.transitchicago.com/assets/1/6/FY2025_CTA_Budget_...
    - xethos 2y ago
      You should probably know that "Labor" includes a hell of a lot more than drivers though. That's, at minimum, the tiremen to the body guys to the mechanics that maintain the busses. That's the electricians, the carpenters, the plumbers, that maintain the shop(s). That's the planners (that dictate "X bus will be due for an oil change this day, we need to make sure it's here"), the office administrators, the shop supervisors, the road supervisors. Paying the bus drivers does not account for 70% of the budget, I assure you.

whimsicalism 2y ago

"informal surveillance of roads" - doubt

antithesis-nl 2y ago
Really? "There's a blown-down tree here"... "Someone ran into this lamp post"... "This traffic sign has been vandalized"... "There's someone parked on the grass"... That's all without value?
- whimsicalism 2y ago
  i just do not think bus drivers where i live are doing that except maybe for the tree - you live in the US?
  - antithesis-nl 2y ago
    Nope. Does my HN user name give any hints? Over here, bus drivers (and taxi drivers, ironically, despite being not exactly being law-abiding-as-a-class) account for, like, two thirds of all non-urgent-law-enforcement calls.
- xnx 2y ago
  If you think surveillance is valuable, you should love 360 video recorded by self-driving vehicles which travel all streets in a city, not just fixed routes.
  - antithesis-nl 2y ago
    Yeah, I think surveillance is valuable. Do you think 'surveillance' is always bad? Like: nobody should mention the tree blocking the road, because, well... the implications?
    - whimsicalism 2y ago
      no pretty sure their point is entirely earnest that cameras would be better for the articulated goals
    - xnx 2y ago
      > Do you think 'surveillance' is always bad? No. I would love for there to be many times more traffic cameras and license plate readers. Video-footage from self-driving vehicles could go a long way to getting dangerous drivers off of the road.
      - antithesis-nl 2y ago
        Sorry to burst your bubble in that case, but "getting dangerous drivers off the road" isn't going to happen. Actual case study, maybe slightly summarized an exaggerated: -Prosecution: here is a video of Defendant repeatedly running over several pedestrians -Defense: it was late at night, visibility was really low, and, besides, my client was very drunk. And they really, really need their car and license for their job! They would be ruined otherwise! -Judge: well, good points, are we missing something here? -Prosecution: They. Ran. Over. Several. Pedestrians. Forwards, then backwards! -Judge: yeah, OK, sure, they should cover the immediate medical costs for those unfortunate bystanders, but other than that I order a safe-driving course, 12 months of alcohol interlock and 36 months of suspended license revocation that nobody will care about, ever. Next case!

xnx 2y ago

> "Bus driver" is not exactly a high-paying job In my city, 70% of the operating budget is labor. > passenger safety An excellent way to ensure passenger safety is not to share an enclosed space with someone dangerous. > When it comes to anything 'self-driving', the main goals should be to reduce road traffic and neighborhood pollution-by-parking-spaces. When it comes to transportation systems, the goals should be: safety, utility, reliability, convenience, speed, flexibility, efficiency, environmental impact (pollution, noise, etc.).

antithesis-nl 2y ago
> In my city, 70% of the operating budget is labor Link? Because, well, your city is certainly special! Unless, like, you group things like 'pension liabilities', and 'insurance involving personnel' under 'labor', which is... creative but not accurate.
- xnx 2y ago
  "Labor" $1.3 billion of $1.8 billion budget: https://www.civicfed.org/civic-federation/blog/cta%E2%80%99s-fy2023-18-billion-operating-budget-approved https://www.civicfed.org/civic-federation/blog/cta%E2%80%99s...
  - antithesis-nl 2y ago
    [flagged]
    - xnx 2y ago
      I didn't want to link to a PDF, but here you go (PDF page 41): https://www.transitchicago.com/assets/1/6/FY2025_CTA_Budget_Book.pdf https://www.transitchicago.com/assets/1/6/FY2025_CTA_Budget_...
  - xethos 2y ago
    You should probably know that "Labor" includes a hell of a lot more than drivers though. That's, at minimum, the tiremen to the body guys to the mechanics that maintain the busses. That's the electricians, the carpenters, the plumbers, that maintain the shop(s). That's the planners (that dictate "X bus will be due for an oil change this day, we need to make sure it's here"), the office administrators, the shop supervisors, the road supervisors. Paying the bus drivers does not account for 70% of the budget, I assure you.