5 ms·

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by gedy 2y ago

[flagged]

senda 2y ago
those startups are really searching for meaning
Loughla 2y ago
Yeah, it seems like self-driving isn't the cost saver here. It seems like route planning and optimization is a much better place to spend money.
- gedy 2y ago
  Yeah, I mean using this tech for a fleet of self driving, point-to-point taxis as public transit makes sense to me. A bus on the usual fixed routes? Not really.
  - stego-tech 2y ago
    Because point-to-point self-driving taxis are a fool’s errand. They don’t alleviate congestion, they don’t improve traffic flow, they don’t improve urban planning. They’re a direct replacement for individual cars, but now rent-forever as opposed to owning or leasing ourselves. The whole concept is just to remove another strata of ownership and funnel more money to Capital and away from Governments, which I guess is the whole point if you genuinely don’t like governments for some reason. The healthier option for the masses is expanding mass transit networks, not luxe taxis. Light rail is infinitely more efficient and safer than individual vehicles, be they owner-operated or self-driving. It moves more people, further, faster, and cheaper than any potential self-driving automobile. When you include the whole of networks - ferries, bus routes, commuter rail - they’re the single most effective solution to everything self-driving car proponents claim their products can do, if only they had another round of funding. I’m not saying we should stop investing in the technology, mind. I just think it’s a better use of our limited resources to invest in improving, expanding, and modernizing mass transit than to build armies of privately-owned taxis, self-driving or otherwise.
    - triceratops 2y ago
      > self-driving taxis...don’t alleviate congestion Not by themselves. But combine them with a congestion tax, unless the taxi is full, and you've got an infinitely adaptable, cheap, and scalable bus network.
    - xnx 2y ago
      That's a lot of unsupported claims. I'm not familiar with the situation worldwide, but in the US metropolitan transit agencies are primarily a tool to funnel public money to private construction firms and unions. Sometimes this money-suck happens at the rate of $3.5 billion/mile: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/28/nyregion/new-york-subway-construction-costs.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/28/nyregion/new-york-subway-... I like public transit, and I Know he public can get a lot more for its money if we leave behind our old thinking.
  - cozzyd 2y ago
    A point to point taxi has low capacity and is deadheading empty half the time. Many buses on more fixed routes (possibly with flexible small deviations) is going to be much more efficient.
    - xnx 2y ago
      Seat utilization (i.e. cost per passenger mile) is a good way to think about things. Small shuttles are almost certainly a win over large buses. Definitely worth running the simulations to see if small (6 passenger) vehicles are even better.
      - cozzyd 2y ago
        I don't know, standing room only buses is common place for me ..
bongodongobob 2y ago
No, there are 600k bus drivers in the US.
Retric 2y ago
Remove the bus driver and you can significantly ramp up bus service at the same cost. NYC only has 6k buses for 2 million weekday passengers. Make them more convenient by say having 20k of them and you get more traffic throughput.
- taneq 2y ago
  Do you seriously think the driver is a major factor in the cost of putting a bus on the road? How much does a bus cost?
  - Retric 2y ago
    NYC bus drivers start at 27$/hour well above the other costs, and those buses are used ~80-100 hours per week. Classic school bus costs ~10k/year in depreciation and get 10 miles to the gallon making the driver at an average 18$/hour the largest cost even outside of cities.
  - MattDB101 2y ago
    I can guarantee you it is a limiting factor. The majority of bus drivers are semi-retired folk looking for something to keep them active and earn a bit on the side. I'm speaking from experience.
    - cozzyd 2y ago
      That definitely doesn't match the profile of most bus drivers I see. Maybe it's true in more rural areas.
  - triceratops 2y ago
    A new bus costs about $400-900k (diesels are the cheapest, electric are the most expensive). I would guess a driver costs $60-90k year including taxes and benefits. Drivers aren't a majority of the cost of operating a bus, but I'd bet it's at least 20%.
    - cozzyd 2y ago
BurningFrog 2y ago
Automatic manual tasks is how we worked our way up from unspeakable poverty and disease in last 250 years. Each individual improvement was usually small and insignificant.
memco 2y ago
There are many people who are too young, too old or lack abilities necessary to drive places: they are completely dependent on the will of others to help them get where they need to go. Coordinating the transportation is taxing in many ways and having more options for people to get where they need to go on their own terms is helpful for borders as well as those providing service. Many people cannot leverage existing busses because they don’t go where they need to go when they need to get there. Having something that can more dynamically adjust to meet demand could be very helpful if it can do more than replace the existing system.
dang 2y ago
"Please don't post shallow dismissals, especially of other people's work. A good critical comment teaches us something." https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

[flagged]

by gedy 2y ago

[flagged]

senda 2y ago

those startups are really searching for meaning

Loughla 2y ago

Yeah, it seems like self-driving isn't the cost saver here. It seems like route planning and optimization is a much better place to spend money.

gedy 2y ago
Yeah, I mean using this tech for a fleet of self driving, point-to-point taxis as public transit makes sense to me. A bus on the usual fixed routes? Not really.
- stego-tech 2y ago
  Because point-to-point self-driving taxis are a fool’s errand. They don’t alleviate congestion, they don’t improve traffic flow, they don’t improve urban planning. They’re a direct replacement for individual cars, but now rent-forever as opposed to owning or leasing ourselves. The whole concept is just to remove another strata of ownership and funnel more money to Capital and away from Governments, which I guess is the whole point if you genuinely don’t like governments for some reason. The healthier option for the masses is expanding mass transit networks, not luxe taxis. Light rail is infinitely more efficient and safer than individual vehicles, be they owner-operated or self-driving. It moves more people, further, faster, and cheaper than any potential self-driving automobile. When you include the whole of networks - ferries, bus routes, commuter rail - they’re the single most effective solution to everything self-driving car proponents claim their products can do, if only they had another round of funding. I’m not saying we should stop investing in the technology, mind. I just think it’s a better use of our limited resources to invest in improving, expanding, and modernizing mass transit than to build armies of privately-owned taxis, self-driving or otherwise.
  - triceratops 2y ago
    > self-driving taxis...don’t alleviate congestion Not by themselves. But combine them with a congestion tax, unless the taxi is full, and you've got an infinitely adaptable, cheap, and scalable bus network.
  - xnx 2y ago
    That's a lot of unsupported claims. I'm not familiar with the situation worldwide, but in the US metropolitan transit agencies are primarily a tool to funnel public money to private construction firms and unions. Sometimes this money-suck happens at the rate of $3.5 billion/mile: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/28/nyregion/new-york-subway-construction-costs.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/28/nyregion/new-york-subway-... I like public transit, and I Know he public can get a lot more for its money if we leave behind our old thinking.
- cozzyd 2y ago
  A point to point taxi has low capacity and is deadheading empty half the time. Many buses on more fixed routes (possibly with flexible small deviations) is going to be much more efficient.
  - xnx 2y ago
    Seat utilization (i.e. cost per passenger mile) is a good way to think about things. Small shuttles are almost certainly a win over large buses. Definitely worth running the simulations to see if small (6 passenger) vehicles are even better.
    - cozzyd 2y ago
      I don't know, standing room only buses is common place for me ..

bongodongobob 2y ago

No, there are 600k bus drivers in the US.

Retric 2y ago

Remove the bus driver and you can significantly ramp up bus service at the same cost. NYC only has 6k buses for 2 million weekday passengers. Make them more convenient by say having 20k of them and you get more traffic throughput.

taneq 2y ago
Do you seriously think the driver is a major factor in the cost of putting a bus on the road? How much does a bus cost?
- Retric 2y ago
  NYC bus drivers start at 27$/hour well above the other costs, and those buses are used ~80-100 hours per week. Classic school bus costs ~10k/year in depreciation and get 10 miles to the gallon making the driver at an average 18$/hour the largest cost even outside of cities.
- MattDB101 2y ago
  I can guarantee you it is a limiting factor. The majority of bus drivers are semi-retired folk looking for something to keep them active and earn a bit on the side. I'm speaking from experience.
  - cozzyd 2y ago
    That definitely doesn't match the profile of most bus drivers I see. Maybe it's true in more rural areas.
- triceratops 2y ago
  A new bus costs about $400-900k (diesels are the cheapest, electric are the most expensive). I would guess a driver costs $60-90k year including taxes and benefits. Drivers aren't a majority of the cost of operating a bus, but I'd bet it's at least 20%.
  - cozzyd 2y ago

BurningFrog 2y ago

Automatic manual tasks is how we worked our way up from unspeakable poverty and disease in last 250 years. Each individual improvement was usually small and insignificant.

memco 2y ago

There are many people who are too young, too old or lack abilities necessary to drive places: they are completely dependent on the will of others to help them get where they need to go. Coordinating the transportation is taxing in many ways and having more options for people to get where they need to go on their own terms is helpful for borders as well as those providing service. Many people cannot leverage existing busses because they don’t go where they need to go when they need to get there. Having something that can more dynamically adjust to meet demand could be very helpful if it can do more than replace the existing system.

dang 2y ago

"Please don't post shallow dismissals, especially of other people's work. A good critical comment teaches us something." https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html