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I have been convinced for years that the National Electrical Code is written first and foremost to serve the interests of electrical wiring device manufacturers

I have been convinced for years that the National Electrical Code is written first and foremost to serve the interests of electrical wiring device manufacturers, and not the needs of end users, or even the safety of end users. The way the AFCI mess played out lost them so much credibility that it is hard to take this seriously as being about "safety" any more.

p0w3n3d 2y ago
When driving a car with internal combustion engine, you pay a lot (in Europe especially a lot!) taxes in the gas price. This means that all the people driving EV would (so far) avoid this tax and this means that this must be put to an end!!!!1 So this move might be also about taxing the EVs (just a tin-foil-hat wearing conspiracy theory maker here, don't take my words too seriously)
- exmadscientist 2y ago
  I don't think you have to go that far. I think the NEC is beholden to the people who make this stuff. Right now I have a 14-50R in my garage (I don't even use it, I have it shut off at the panel; I don't have an EV, this is just new construction). The standard breaker is $18.98 right now at the big orange store. The GFCI version they're trying to make mandatory is $190.68. I think that says all you need to know. (And before anyone says they must cost that much more to make... they do not. I have designed GFI and AFI devices. You need to add a circuit board, yes, a pretty rugged one. The ordinary breaker is all mechanical. But that does not cost $170 more to do.)
  - Ekaros 2y ago
    That is amazing price for something that millions of will be made each year. Just calculate how many of them are needed in total and then take replacement even every 50 years or something. It scales to large number needed.
  - eecc 2y ago
    Indeed, and this mass-produced stuff is pretty simple compared to an IC chip. Who are handcrafting these devices, blonde virgin maidens at night under the shine of a full moon? :D
  - michaelt 2y ago
    Here in the UK, we call them RCDs or RCBOs, and they cost £18: https://www.toolstation.com/bg-compact-rcbo/p81865 https://www.toolstation.com/bg-compact-rcbo/p81865
    - exmadscientist 2y ago
      Basic GFCIs are also around the same price in the US. The discussion in the article is about mandating that weirdo breakers also contain GFCI/AFCI components. Unsurprisingly, manufacturers charge a lot more for the oddball parts. (My load center's vendor also seems to be particularly bad with the price gouging, but I didn't exactly choose it, so in that respect it's perfectly representative of what gets chosen for people.)
- alibarber 2y ago
  Don’t worry - in my country (Finland) they already thought of that and instead of the emissions based annual road tax, which would of course be zero, they managed to add a ‘tax on driving power’ to electric cars. Notwithstanding that electricity for any use already has a per KWh tax added. Plus sales tax of course.
  - eecc 2y ago
    Well, in Italy the road tax has always been on engine power. Indeed the VAT is a nuisance, actually the most regressive form of taxation possible: rich people with enough income who can afford to spend only a fraction of it, end up paying VAT accordingly; while low income citizens who have to spend all their salary end up with an additional, significant tax burden on their whole net income.
NewJazz 2y ago
What AFCI mess?
- dlcarrier 2y ago
  Search online for "AFCI" along with any appliance that has a motor in it, like a vacuum, refrigerator, or hair dryer. You'll get pages of posts of people asking why the appliances keep tripping the AFCI breaker. The reason why is that those devices create arcs, and AFCI breakers are completely unable to handle them. Some regions require AFCI breakers, so a significant portion of household appliances will occasionally trip the breaker. The worst part is that it isn't particularly consistent, so your fridge could last for years without tripping it, but as brushes wear the arcs they regularly create increase the chances of a trip, until one day you find that all your food is ruined, because the AFCI breaker tripped at an inopportune time. Fortunately, my fridge trips the AFCI very reliably, so I was able to detect it before losing any food. All I had to do to fix it was make a few passes with the hot wire through a ferrite bead, right before it connects to the AFCI breaker. It completely blocks the arc-created RF that the AFCI is detecting, disabling the functionality of the AFCI, all without any code violations, because while the AFCI is required, the ferrite bead isn't prohibited.
  - soramimo 2y ago
    I upgraded all of my breakers to AFCI+GFCI. Worked flawlessly so far (about 6 months in). The only two times where my AFCI tripped were 1) my blow-dryer shorted out due to a worn out cable (WAI) and 2) the PSU on my PC started tripping the AFCI (sent back to the manufacturer and got a replacement). So in both cases, at least for me, the AFCIs caught real problems. Not a single trip of the GFCI function so far including vacuum, fride, and various power tools (and it's great peace of mind to have this with kids in the house).
    - abakker 2y ago
      All good for the average user. You cannot run a saw or other corded power tool off an AFCI breaker. it trips _constantly_. This is a problem because NEC wants AFCI/GFCI in all rooms with concrete floors, like garages. This means you basically put those plugs in to pass and then pull them out again.

p0w3n3d 2y ago

When driving a car with internal combustion engine, you pay a lot (in Europe especially a lot!) taxes in the gas price. This means that all the people driving EV would (so far) avoid this tax and this means that this must be put to an end!!!!1 So this move might be also about taxing the EVs (just a tin-foil-hat wearing conspiracy theory maker here, don't take my words too seriously)

exmadscientist 2y ago
I don't think you have to go that far. I think the NEC is beholden to the people who make this stuff. Right now I have a 14-50R in my garage (I don't even use it, I have it shut off at the panel; I don't have an EV, this is just new construction). The standard breaker is $18.98 right now at the big orange store. The GFCI version they're trying to make mandatory is $190.68. I think that says all you need to know. (And before anyone says they must cost that much more to make... they do not. I have designed GFI and AFI devices. You need to add a circuit board, yes, a pretty rugged one. The ordinary breaker is all mechanical. But that does not cost $170 more to do.)
- Ekaros 2y ago
  That is amazing price for something that millions of will be made each year. Just calculate how many of them are needed in total and then take replacement even every 50 years or something. It scales to large number needed.
- eecc 2y ago
  Indeed, and this mass-produced stuff is pretty simple compared to an IC chip. Who are handcrafting these devices, blonde virgin maidens at night under the shine of a full moon? :D
- michaelt 2y ago
  Here in the UK, we call them RCDs or RCBOs, and they cost £18: https://www.toolstation.com/bg-compact-rcbo/p81865 https://www.toolstation.com/bg-compact-rcbo/p81865
  - exmadscientist 2y ago
    Basic GFCIs are also around the same price in the US. The discussion in the article is about mandating that weirdo breakers also contain GFCI/AFCI components. Unsurprisingly, manufacturers charge a lot more for the oddball parts. (My load center's vendor also seems to be particularly bad with the price gouging, but I didn't exactly choose it, so in that respect it's perfectly representative of what gets chosen for people.)
alibarber 2y ago
Don’t worry - in my country (Finland) they already thought of that and instead of the emissions based annual road tax, which would of course be zero, they managed to add a ‘tax on driving power’ to electric cars. Notwithstanding that electricity for any use already has a per KWh tax added. Plus sales tax of course.
- eecc 2y ago
  Well, in Italy the road tax has always been on engine power. Indeed the VAT is a nuisance, actually the most regressive form of taxation possible: rich people with enough income who can afford to spend only a fraction of it, end up paying VAT accordingly; while low income citizens who have to spend all their salary end up with an additional, significant tax burden on their whole net income.

NewJazz 2y ago

What AFCI mess?

dlcarrier 2y ago
Search online for "AFCI" along with any appliance that has a motor in it, like a vacuum, refrigerator, or hair dryer. You'll get pages of posts of people asking why the appliances keep tripping the AFCI breaker. The reason why is that those devices create arcs, and AFCI breakers are completely unable to handle them. Some regions require AFCI breakers, so a significant portion of household appliances will occasionally trip the breaker. The worst part is that it isn't particularly consistent, so your fridge could last for years without tripping it, but as brushes wear the arcs they regularly create increase the chances of a trip, until one day you find that all your food is ruined, because the AFCI breaker tripped at an inopportune time. Fortunately, my fridge trips the AFCI very reliably, so I was able to detect it before losing any food. All I had to do to fix it was make a few passes with the hot wire through a ferrite bead, right before it connects to the AFCI breaker. It completely blocks the arc-created RF that the AFCI is detecting, disabling the functionality of the AFCI, all without any code violations, because while the AFCI is required, the ferrite bead isn't prohibited.
- soramimo 2y ago
  I upgraded all of my breakers to AFCI+GFCI. Worked flawlessly so far (about 6 months in). The only two times where my AFCI tripped were 1) my blow-dryer shorted out due to a worn out cable (WAI) and 2) the PSU on my PC started tripping the AFCI (sent back to the manufacturer and got a replacement). So in both cases, at least for me, the AFCIs caught real problems. Not a single trip of the GFCI function so far including vacuum, fride, and various power tools (and it's great peace of mind to have this with kids in the house).
  - abakker 2y ago
    All good for the average user. You cannot run a saw or other corded power tool off an AFCI breaker. it trips _constantly_. This is a problem because NEC wants AFCI/GFCI in all rooms with concrete floors, like garages. This means you basically put those plugs in to pass and then pull them out again.