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Top European court backs woman against divorce on grounds of "marital duties"

3 points by impish9208 2y ago

deleted 2y ago
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bigfatkitten 2y ago
I thought no fault divorces were more or less standard now in civilised countries. Australia since 1975, Canada since 1968, China since 1950, and most U.S. states for around 50 years or so.
- deleted 2y ago
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Anon_Coward0815 2y ago
This is a bit silly, because the article blatantly confuses multiple topics. Obviosuly, in any particular situation, a woman -- and a man -- should have the right to say "no" - to matters sexual and otherwise; if it still happens, it would be rape. Individuals have rights, and neither spouse is a "sex slave". But this is not about such an instance, it's about the reason given in a divorce case, ending a long-term relationship where both sides entered some promises to each other, which as commonly understood including sexual fulfilment as well as fidelity. If the husband's argument is that he wants a divorce on the grounds that not just in one particular instance, but in all future situations, she vocally will no longer love him, she has kind of divorced him already, in my view. This is the reverse situation from English common law marriage, where if a couple cohabitates and sleep with one another, and this goes on for a while, they are considered de-factor married, whether they register in town hall or not, not to mention church weddings. English Common Law auto-acknowledges what is already obvious, and for this French couple, the civil marriage seems over, whatever any court thinks about it (and I highly respect the ECHR). And this is not to say it's her fault, as the context seems to suggest that he was violent before suggesting he might be guilty. But then again the legal history also tells us he did not file for divorce immediately, he waited for several years. Things are usually complicated, and we were not there, but in any case it looks like their relationship has suffered some total breakdown. At the time of writing, in French law, divorce is regulated by the Civil Code and offers several legitimate legal grounds, the main types of divorce are: 1. Divorce by Mutual Consent (Divorce par consentement mutuel) Both spouses agree to the divorce and on all related issues (division of property, child custody, alimony, etc.). No need to provide a specific reason. Requires a written agreement prepared with lawyers, submitted to a notary for validation (no court involvement unless children request to be heard). 2. Divorce for Fault (Divorce pour faute) One spouse alleges that the other committed a serious violation of marital duties or obligations, making continued cohabitation intolerable. Common grounds for fault include: Adultery, Abuse or violence, Neglect of familial responsibilities, Moral or psychological abuse, Criminal conduct by one spouse. Proof of the fault is required, and a court decides if it justifies divorce. 3. Divorce by Acceptance of the Principle of Irretrievable Breakdown (Divorce accepté) Both spouses agree that the marriage has irretrievably broken down but cannot agree on other aspects (e.g., child custody or finances). The court decides on contested issues after confirming that both parties agree to the divorce itself. 4. Divorce for Permanent Separation (Divorce pour altération définitive du lien conjugal) One spouse can initiate divorce if the couple has been living separately for at least one year at the time of filing. No need to prove fault or the spouse's consent—just the existence of a one-year separation. Based on that, the wife could get a divorce based on the husband's behavior, but not the other way round; but the husband could move out, wait for one year, and then go ahead with the divorce "divorce accepté" (3.) without any problem. He may not have consulted a legal professional, the French are very busy getting divorced (51.35%) since Catholicism and religion in general are on the decline.
s1artibartfast 2y ago
Interesting case. I tend to agree with anon_cowards dead take. I'm not familiar with the legal context, but I don't see the conflict between consent and contract fault. It seems like a person can simultaneously have an overriding right to revoke consent, but also be in violation of martial expectations, allowing the other person to leave the contract. Forcing someone to remain married to someone else that denies affection seems unjust.

3 points by impish9208 2y ago

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

I thought no fault divorces were more or less standard now in civilised countries. Australia since 1975, Canada since 1968, China since 1950, and most U.S. states for around 50 years or so.

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

Anon_Coward0815 2y ago

This is a bit silly, because the article blatantly confuses multiple topics. Obviosuly, in any particular situation, a woman -- and a man -- should have the right to say "no" - to matters sexual and otherwise; if it still happens, it would be rape. Individuals have rights, and neither spouse is a "sex slave". But this is not about such an instance, it's about the reason given in a divorce case, ending a long-term relationship where both sides entered some promises to each other, which as commonly understood including sexual fulfilment as well as fidelity. If the husband's argument is that he wants a divorce on the grounds that not just in one particular instance, but in all future situations, she vocally will no longer love him, she has kind of divorced him already, in my view. This is the reverse situation from English common law marriage, where if a couple cohabitates and sleep with one another, and this goes on for a while, they are considered de-factor married, whether they register in town hall or not, not to mention church weddings. English Common Law auto-acknowledges what is already obvious, and for this French couple, the civil marriage seems over, whatever any court thinks about it (and I highly respect the ECHR). And this is not to say it's her fault, as the context seems to suggest that he was violent before suggesting he might be guilty. But then again the legal history also tells us he did not file for divorce immediately, he waited for several years. Things are usually complicated, and we were not there, but in any case it looks like their relationship has suffered some total breakdown. At the time of writing, in French law, divorce is regulated by the Civil Code and offers several legitimate legal grounds, the main types of divorce are: 1. Divorce by Mutual Consent (Divorce par consentement mutuel) Both spouses agree to the divorce and on all related issues (division of property, child custody, alimony, etc.). No need to provide a specific reason. Requires a written agreement prepared with lawyers, submitted to a notary for validation (no court involvement unless children request to be heard). 2. Divorce for Fault (Divorce pour faute) One spouse alleges that the other committed a serious violation of marital duties or obligations, making continued cohabitation intolerable. Common grounds for fault include: Adultery, Abuse or violence, Neglect of familial responsibilities, Moral or psychological abuse, Criminal conduct by one spouse. Proof of the fault is required, and a court decides if it justifies divorce. 3. Divorce by Acceptance of the Principle of Irretrievable Breakdown (Divorce accepté) Both spouses agree that the marriage has irretrievably broken down but cannot agree on other aspects (e.g., child custody or finances). The court decides on contested issues after confirming that both parties agree to the divorce itself. 4. Divorce for Permanent Separation (Divorce pour altération définitive du lien conjugal) One spouse can initiate divorce if the couple has been living separately for at least one year at the time of filing. No need to prove fault or the spouse's consent—just the existence of a one-year separation. Based on that, the wife could get a divorce based on the husband's behavior, but not the other way round; but the husband could move out, wait for one year, and then go ahead with the divorce "divorce accepté" (3.) without any problem. He may not have consulted a legal professional, the French are very busy getting divorced (51.35%) since Catholicism and religion in general are on the decline.

s1artibartfast 2y ago

Interesting case. I tend to agree with anon_cowards dead take. I'm not familiar with the legal context, but I don't see the conflict between consent and contract fault. It seems like a person can simultaneously have an overriding right to revoke consent, but also be in violation of martial expectations, allowing the other person to leave the contract. Forcing someone to remain married to someone else that denies affection seems unjust.