5 ms·

Just like IBM and the Holocaust.

cempaka 2y ago
Only this time the mass mind control has been so well perfected, they can just conduct the indiscriminate killing in broad daylight.
- myrmidon 2y ago
  I honestly believe that the single thing that allowed the levelling of the Gaza strip is October 7th. This is an easy "excuse" for an outside observer, because the scales are just not obvious enough; On one hand, you have a desperate/futile lashing out from palestinian terrorists (killing about a thousand civilians), on the other hand, a coldblooded strategic bombing campaign (with >20000 victims and basically no building left behind). I would be really hesitant with assigning blame on either side here. What do you think would have happened without that "mass mind control"? How could specifically western/external states have helped the situation in hindsight?
  - mackyspace 2y ago
    What helps is to know the history of Israel’s ethic cleansing campaign against Palestinians. Zionists have been murdering civilians en mass since Israel was founded. We don’t hear about it in the West, but it’s actually well documented. They even sniped over a thousand people during the peaceful March of Return protest, leaving Hamas essentially no option.
    - myrmidon 2y ago
      Sure, but the low inhibitions on murdering civilians are entirely mutual- it's not like all the suicide bombing during the second intifada was mainly aimed against military targets... I'll absolutely concede that as outsider its more important to keep the Israelis in check, but this is simply because of how the power balance looks: Israel is a modern industrialized state with a highly effective military-- the palestinians, on the other hand, have some smuggled RPGs and a bunch of guns at best. But when assigning blame for all the bloodshed, also consider the following: If you swapped the roles over night, took all the military capabilities from Israel and gave it to the Palestinians: Do you think the situation would actually improve, or stabilize? Honestly? My external view of the whole conflict is that Israel is a state that does not want to care for or govern its palestinian minority (which is unethical and very problematic); a lot of palestinians, on the other hand, simply want the Jewish population dead or banished, and finding a solution from this position is immensely difficult.
      - mackyspace 2y ago
        That ignores history though. There’s a very clear right and wrong here. Israel was artificially constructed through ethnic cleansing. The Balfour Declaration and Nakba pretty much explain it all.
        myrmidon 2y ago
        I can absolutely see your point that Israelis in the past did unethical things to make their state happen. And many Israelis do unethical things still, or abuse the power of their state to disproportionally react to attacks. But my point is-- this is completely unhelpful and almost irrelevant for conflict resolution now. Because what are you gonna do? Throw all the Israelis back to Europe or wherever their ancestors used to live at some point? Give all the military power to Palestinians and just... find out what happens? It's also important to note that pretty much every modern nation has figurative ethical skeletons ins its closet, and frequently in the rather recent past-- would you sanction/break up the US for segregation (or, worse, their past with native americans)? White South Africans for apartheid? France for colonialism/Vietnam? I'm just saying that it is very difficult to deal with historical injustice consistently... If you got to call the shots, what would you do with todays Israel? PS: thank you for the discussion-- i really appreciate getting feedback from a different PoV in a civil manner!
        mackyspace 2y ago
        I’m in the US so I would start with immediately ending all funding, military and political support for Israel. They’ve been able to be belligerent because we empowered that. Then I would sanction US companies that operate in Israel until apartheid is fully ended and a singular democratic state exists and the right of return is honored with reparations. I think we’d either see Israel play ball or collapse ala Rhodesia. Focusing on putting economic pressure on Israel seems like the most peaceful solution but I wouldn’t deny Palestinians a military option if that was all they had.
        myrmidon 2y ago
    - weatherlite 2y ago
      > We don’t hear about it in the West Lol right, we never hear about it. You people are so meek and quiet about the perceived evilness of Israel. People only speak about Sudan, Syria, Yemen and countless other places with worse atrocities. No one ever mentions the Palestinians.
      - mackyspace 2y ago
        The vast majority of Americans do not know about The Balfour Declaration, Nakba, The March of Return… they know what Zionist media teaches them, which is nothing about the actual history of the region. This is the source of demographic split in how Israel is viewed. People who grew up with the internet vs msm are more informed.
        weatherlite 2y ago
        Right the whole world needs to talk about the Nakba and Balfour, constantly. That's the major historical event the world needs to be obsessed about and the most important thing on our plates now.
        mackyspace 2y ago
        Yes. It’s directly related to the most major issues of today including the post we are currently commenting on.
        weatherlite 2y ago
        The fact we're talking about it does not mean its related to the most major issues of today. That's your opinion and I can't think of anything you can back this up with.
        mackyspace 2y ago
        If you don’t think the war in Israel, AIPAC, Zionist owned AI, Zionist VCs, the presidential election… are important, then there’s not much for us to discuss. Side note, the pathological Israeli desire to have the last word is super obnoxious. You can just let a conversation end without adding one more reiteration of the same thing you’ve already said many times. I find this bad trait is omnipresent amongst Zionists.
  - cempaka 2y ago
    Obviously the United States could simply have refused to sell weapons or crucial technology to the Israelis. The impact this could have is often overblown but it's not nothing. We also could not have taken part in the atrocity propaganda around October 7 which has advanced numerous falsehoods like "mass rape," "40 beheaded babies," or even "1000 civilians killed."
Avicebron 2y ago
Deeply ironic
carabiner 2y ago
Just like YC and a cruise missile company: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41305736 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41305736

Only this time the mass mind control has been so well perfected, they can just conduct the indiscriminate killing in broad daylight.

myrmidon 2y ago
I honestly believe that the single thing that allowed the levelling of the Gaza strip is October 7th. This is an easy "excuse" for an outside observer, because the scales are just not obvious enough; On one hand, you have a desperate/futile lashing out from palestinian terrorists (killing about a thousand civilians), on the other hand, a coldblooded strategic bombing campaign (with >20000 victims and basically no building left behind). I would be really hesitant with assigning blame on either side here. What do you think would have happened without that "mass mind control"? How could specifically western/external states have helped the situation in hindsight?
- mackyspace 2y ago
  What helps is to know the history of Israel’s ethic cleansing campaign against Palestinians. Zionists have been murdering civilians en mass since Israel was founded. We don’t hear about it in the West, but it’s actually well documented. They even sniped over a thousand people during the peaceful March of Return protest, leaving Hamas essentially no option.
  - myrmidon 2y ago
    Sure, but the low inhibitions on murdering civilians are entirely mutual- it's not like all the suicide bombing during the second intifada was mainly aimed against military targets... I'll absolutely concede that as outsider its more important to keep the Israelis in check, but this is simply because of how the power balance looks: Israel is a modern industrialized state with a highly effective military-- the palestinians, on the other hand, have some smuggled RPGs and a bunch of guns at best. But when assigning blame for all the bloodshed, also consider the following: If you swapped the roles over night, took all the military capabilities from Israel and gave it to the Palestinians: Do you think the situation would actually improve, or stabilize? Honestly? My external view of the whole conflict is that Israel is a state that does not want to care for or govern its palestinian minority (which is unethical and very problematic); a lot of palestinians, on the other hand, simply want the Jewish population dead or banished, and finding a solution from this position is immensely difficult.
    - mackyspace 2y ago
      That ignores history though. There’s a very clear right and wrong here. Israel was artificially constructed through ethnic cleansing. The Balfour Declaration and Nakba pretty much explain it all.
      - myrmidon 2y ago
        I can absolutely see your point that Israelis in the past did unethical things to make their state happen. And many Israelis do unethical things still, or abuse the power of their state to disproportionally react to attacks. But my point is-- this is completely unhelpful and almost irrelevant for conflict resolution now. Because what are you gonna do? Throw all the Israelis back to Europe or wherever their ancestors used to live at some point? Give all the military power to Palestinians and just... find out what happens? It's also important to note that pretty much every modern nation has figurative ethical skeletons ins its closet, and frequently in the rather recent past-- would you sanction/break up the US for segregation (or, worse, their past with native americans)? White South Africans for apartheid? France for colonialism/Vietnam? I'm just saying that it is very difficult to deal with historical injustice consistently... If you got to call the shots, what would you do with todays Israel? PS: thank you for the discussion-- i really appreciate getting feedback from a different PoV in a civil manner!
        mackyspace 2y ago
        I’m in the US so I would start with immediately ending all funding, military and political support for Israel. They’ve been able to be belligerent because we empowered that. Then I would sanction US companies that operate in Israel until apartheid is fully ended and a singular democratic state exists and the right of return is honored with reparations. I think we’d either see Israel play ball or collapse ala Rhodesia. Focusing on putting economic pressure on Israel seems like the most peaceful solution but I wouldn’t deny Palestinians a military option if that was all they had.
        myrmidon 2y ago
  - weatherlite 2y ago
    > We don’t hear about it in the West Lol right, we never hear about it. You people are so meek and quiet about the perceived evilness of Israel. People only speak about Sudan, Syria, Yemen and countless other places with worse atrocities. No one ever mentions the Palestinians.
    - mackyspace 2y ago
      The vast majority of Americans do not know about The Balfour Declaration, Nakba, The March of Return… they know what Zionist media teaches them, which is nothing about the actual history of the region. This is the source of demographic split in how Israel is viewed. People who grew up with the internet vs msm are more informed.
      - weatherlite 2y ago
        Right the whole world needs to talk about the Nakba and Balfour, constantly. That's the major historical event the world needs to be obsessed about and the most important thing on our plates now.
        mackyspace 2y ago
        Yes. It’s directly related to the most major issues of today including the post we are currently commenting on.
        weatherlite 2y ago
        The fact we're talking about it does not mean its related to the most major issues of today. That's your opinion and I can't think of anything you can back this up with.
        mackyspace 2y ago
        If you don’t think the war in Israel, AIPAC, Zionist owned AI, Zionist VCs, the presidential election… are important, then there’s not much for us to discuss. Side note, the pathological Israeli desire to have the last word is super obnoxious. You can just let a conversation end without adding one more reiteration of the same thing you’ve already said many times. I find this bad trait is omnipresent amongst Zionists.
- cempaka 2y ago
  Obviously the United States could simply have refused to sell weapons or crucial technology to the Israelis. The impact this could have is often overblown but it's not nothing. We also could not have taken part in the atrocity propaganda around October 7 which has advanced numerous falsehoods like "mass rape," "40 beheaded babies," or even "1000 civilians killed."

Avicebron 2y ago

Deeply ironic

carabiner 2y ago

Just like YC and a cruise missile company: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41305736 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41305736