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Sex, Lies and Julian Assange

45 points by Matti 14y ago

nirvana 14y ago
The charge is that he had consensual sex with these women and prosecutors decided it was "rape" because they didn't use protection. Weeks after the fact, when they wanted him for other reasons. They aren't even claiming that it wasn't consensual. Thus the only thing I wonder about this case is how can anyone pretend like this is a legitimate warrant? Everyone consented, there was no crime. Forget about who Assange is, or that this came up after he became very famous, or that the US might be trying to extradite him. None of that matters- there isn't even an alleged crime here[1]. [1] I'm using the word "crime" here in the moral sense. There are lots of things that are not crimes but that are against the law. Since governments are not beholden to morality, laws that cause the violation of rights are themselves crimes. So, something simply being illegal doesn't make it a crime.
- kalleboo 14y ago
  Courts and policemen don't make decisions based on interviews with the press, or what some internet commenter thinks is a crime or not. There's a reason trials exist, to find out if a crime was committed or not. Assange won't even show up to the trial. If he's so sure he didn't commit a crime, it ought not be a problem. From what I've read it's pretty hard to convict people using the existing rape laws in Sweden, since you need a lot of evidence and stuff.
  - nirvana 14y ago
    I think you missed my point. My point is that a crime was not committed, based on the present facts. The law itself criminalizes a non-crime. I'm not saying trials are unnecessary, I'm pointing out there isn't any dispute on the basic facts of the case. In almost every trial there is- the prosecution says he did it, the defendant says he didn't. Here both sides say the same thing about what happened. IT is the law that is the crime, but the law will not be put on trial if there is a trial. (They don't even do that in the USA anymore, even though that was the foundation of our system.)
    - kalleboo 14y ago
      You don't need facts to be in dispute for there to be a case. E.g. in a patent lawsuit nobody's debating that Android doesn't have slide to unlock. The debate is if it's an infringement. Similarly, here the trial isn't what he did, it's if what he did was unlawful. Obviously someone thinks it was, and someone doesn't.
    - rprasad 14y ago
      It's good to know that you, single-handedly, have decided that no crime was committed based on an incomplete knowledge of all of the facts of the case. There is a reason we have criminal trials: it is to allow for the exposition of all of the facts of the case, not just the ones selectively released by the prosecution or defense. And, based on my reading of the facts currently available, it sounds like Assange may have been guilty of rape by fraud, if he misled either of the women about why he was not using protection. As to your final, comment: even a cursory glance at the news will suggest how ridiculously untrue it is. Laws, even those that have been on the books without issue for decades, are regularly challenged by defendants in the U.S. The trial court then holds a hearing on the law itself. Only after the challenge to the law has been resolved does the case proceed to trial on the substantive issues.
  - artsrc 14y ago
    > Assange won't even show up to the trial. If he's so sure he didn't commit a crime, it ought not be a problem. Assange thinks he will be convicted of a crime. He thinks he will end up being imprisoned for the rest of his life in the United States for releasing secrets. The issue is not Swedish rape laws, it is Swedish extradition laws.
    - kalleboo 14y ago
      > The issue is not Swedish rape laws, it is Swedish extradition laws. Agreed. And that's what we should be discussing, not the rape laws.
- three4s 14y ago
  >I don't have 46 minutes to spare on a strong headline, but I will say this I can't be assed to properly asses the situation so let me give you my uneducated opinion. Fix'd
  - nirvana 14y ago
    Oh, sorry, I am not uneducated. I have read a great deal of accounts on this issue back when the charges were first leveled. I have heard the story from both sides in interviews, saw the tweets, looked into the charges and the law itself. I have no idea whether this program is good or not, but there is a key point about the situation, and I made it. I find it interesting that you assume that because I didn't watch this particular program I'm "uneducated".... yet you have no problem giving me that derogatory characterization without actually showing where I was in error on anything I said. This isn't reddit. Yet.
    - three4s 14y ago
      >This isn't reddit. Look how intellectually superior I am to everyone else. Fix'd
      - nirvana 14y ago
        Generally responses where you mischaracterize what someone has said are not preferred on this forum. That is what I'm saying, and you continue to do it. Effectively, you're just calling me names. In this example, you're claiming that I'm saying I'm "intellectually superior" as a way of implying that I don't have any argument other than being smug. In doing so, you cut out my actual explanations and have ignored my arguments. If you're going to disagree with me, I have no chance to even understand why, unless you explain your position. You have not done so.
        three4s 14y ago
        Why, this the internet is serial business for you huh?
- mtgx 14y ago
  The video shows how the first woman even accompanied him to other events the next couple of days or so and tweeted about it. That doesn't exactly sound like what a woman who was "sexually assaulted", let alone raped, would do. And he slept at her place again after that, too.
- michael_nielsen 14y ago
  Please don't write a (top-level) comment if you don't have time to read the article. EDIT: The parent comment has now been edited to remove the original starting sentence: "I don't have 46 minutes to spare on a strong headline, but I will say this...".
  - loceng 14y ago
    It's interesting to get a perspective of what a sample of the general population might believe though - unless we should start censoring people, though that's not a great road to go down either.. probably worse than trolling even..
  - nirvana 14y ago
    I did read the article. I saw nothing in it that contradicts my position. I haven't seen any statements from others that contradict my understanding of the facts. Your comment doesn't provide me any understanding of your disagreement with my position.
    - deleted 14y ago
      [deleted]
    - michael_nielsen 14y ago
      Your original comment began by stating "I don't have 46 minutes to spare on a strong headline, but I will say this...". You have since edited that out. So you appear to have read the article after writing your comment. On your last sentence: I didn't comment on your position one way or the other.
- gadders 14y ago
  I don't think your reading of the offence is correct Certainly the UK Extradition Judge in his first hearing thought he had a case to answer, and had the offence occurred in the UK it would probably be classed as sexual assault.
  - nirvana 14y ago
    How can consensual sex be assault? Even in the UK?
    - loeg 14y ago
      The same way as in this case… sex under false pretenses is not consensual; i.e., it is sexual assault / rape. An example of this might be pretending to be someone's wife to sleep with him. While this might appear consensual to you, this is sexual assault because the victim may have chosen not to consent if he had been given the truth at the time of the assault.
    - mootothemax 14y ago
      How can consensual sex be assault? Even in the UK? Assange is alleged to have had sex with one of the women whilst she was sleeping[1]. That is very much considered rape in the UK. [1] http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2010/dec/17/julian-assange-q-and-a http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2010/dec/17/julian-assange-q...
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
belorn 14y ago
Small cited section from the article: "You only need to look at the way that Red Notices are used around the world. Red Notices are normally the preserve of terrorists and dictators. The president of Syria does not have a Red Notice alert. Gaddafi in Libya, at the same time Julian's arrest warrant was issued, was not subject to a Red Notice but an Orange Notice. It was an incredibly... it was incredibly unusual that a red notice would be sought for an allegation of this kind." And the allegation is accusation of sexually assault of the lowest degree. The lowest. Accusations. If Anders Breivik fled out of jail from Norway, he would be unlikely to receive the same high international legal attention that Assange got. It things like that this that causes people to loose trust in the legal system, especially the Swedish legal system.
- mootothemax 14y ago
  Red Notices are normally the preserve of terrorists and dictators. The Wikipedia page says that red notices are: Requests (provisional) arrest of wanted persons, with a view to extradition.: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interpol_notice http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interpol_notice From the page, I can't work out what other notice would have been appropriate in its place. I do, however, have a massive headcold today, so please let me know if I've missed something obvious :)
  - belorn 14y ago
    The appropriate method is to issue an arrest, then using informal channels to the UK police asking for assistance. Interpol notices are for extreme rare exceptions. If one would to be used for any common crime where the accused has left the country, the list would become useless. We would end up with a list somewhere around 200 000 - 1 000 000 people, not 7,678. It somewhat like bringing in tanks, bombers, and a nuclear missile in handling a shop lifter running away from the store. It might work, but appropriate action it is not. Equal to the law it is clearly not.
- rprasad 14y ago
  That's not how interpol notices ("red notices") work. They are simply notices used for requesting the arrest of criminal suspects by members of Interpol. Syria is not a member of Interpol, nor is he currently detained by any member of Interpol. The same was true of Gaddafi. Consequently, no Red Notice would be issued for either of them. Note also that Julian Assange's crime is not just sexual assault. His crime also consists of attempting to flee to avoid arrest. Flight will trigger an interpol notice regardless of the underlying crime.
damian2000 14y ago
How solid is the claim in this video that US Grand Jury #10GJ3793 is for wikileaks? FYI there's a link here to something associated with it as well... http://www.forbes.com/sites/andygreenberg/2012/07/15/wikileaks-grand-jury-witness-publishes-first-account-of-prosecutors-questioning/ http://www.forbes.com/sites/andygreenberg/2012/07/15/wikilea...
chrisacky 14y ago
Just read the article (it takes about 30 minutes). This was the best account that I've read of the entire situation and has now educated me on to the "dragnet" that surrounds Julian Assange. The TL;DR summary is that everything points to Sweden having being coerced at every juncture (by the US), and the Swedish police failing constantly. ---------------- I'd never actually been clear on what the "sexual assault/rape/molestation" charges were with Assange, but from the transcript, these charges were filed after two women Anna Ardin and Sofia Wilen went to the police to seek advice if they could compel Assange to take a STD test since they did not use a condom during sex. It's unclear from the transcript, but from what I have read, these two women knew that he was sleeping with both of them. Both of the women went to the Klara police station in central Stockholm, however, it is mentioned that Ardin had gone along primarily to support Wilen. Ardin had been frequently in the company of Assange. She had previously described him as such a "cool man" (Twitter). They also arrived and left together at a Crayfish party (equivalent of a cocktail party). Ardin was sharing accomodation with Assange and had refused an offer from someone else for temporary accomodation. The day after the accusation of rape and molesation Ardin sent a SMS saying : "I've just spent some time with the coolest people in the world". SMS text messages were also exchanged between Sofia and Ardin, which showed that the two of them knew of the relationship between each other and Assange. Ardin responded to a friend who was looking for Assange : "He's not here. He's planned to have sex with the cashmere girl every evening, but not made it. Maybe he finally found time yesterday?" The Swedish police, totally railroaded the investigation. Interviews have been leaked with Assange, and Wilen commented initially "that she became so distraught she refused to give any more testimony and refused to sign what had been taken down.". Assange went freely for interview to the police station and was released without immediate charge, and was free to travel. Almost immediately there after, another warrant was issued for his arrest. Eventually, it was also upgraded to a "Red Notice". To put it into context, a red notice for such a trivial charge with a previously willful and responsive person is unusual. > The president of Syria does not have a Red Notice alert. Gaddafi in Libya, at the same time Julian's arrest warrant was issued, was not subject to a Red Notice but an Orange Notice. It was an incredibly... it was incredibly unusual that a red notice would be sought for an allegation of this kind. It's alleged (from the transcripts), that Sweden has frankly always been the United States' lap dog and it's not a matter we are particularly proud of. The Swedish Government has... essentially, whenever a US official says, "Jump", the Sweden Government asks, "How high?" Assange's legal team are clearly trying to point out that US is coercing all of this behind the scenes so that he can then be extradited from Sweden and face trial for conspiracy to commit espionage. > The burden should be on the United States Government to say, "We are not planning to prosecute Julian Assange". If they just gave that assurance, I can guarantee you that Julian Assange would go to Sweden tomorrow.
Draiken 14y ago
Amazing how legal systems are made to bend at the will of biased government interests. If the leaks from Assange were from North Korea or any US "enemy", he'd be getting diplomatic immunity or any other kind of law bending to protect him. The worst thing is, it's not just the US. The US just has more power to do so. This world is damned.
youngtaff 14y ago
What all this stuff ignores is that it would easier for the US to get him extradited from the UK than it would be for them to get him from Sweden.

45 points by Matti 14y ago

The charge is that he had consensual sex with these women and prosecutors decided it was "rape" because they didn't use protection. Weeks after the fact, when they wanted him for other reasons. They aren't even claiming that it wasn't consensual. Thus the only thing I wonder about this case is how can anyone pretend like this is a legitimate warrant? Everyone consented, there was no crime. Forget about who Assange is, or that this came up after he became very famous, or that the US might be trying to extradite him. None of that matters- there isn't even an alleged crime here[1]. [1] I'm using the word "crime" here in the moral sense. There are lots of things that are not crimes but that are against the law. Since governments are not beholden to morality, laws that cause the violation of rights are themselves crimes. So, something simply being illegal doesn't make it a crime.

kalleboo 14y ago
Courts and policemen don't make decisions based on interviews with the press, or what some internet commenter thinks is a crime or not. There's a reason trials exist, to find out if a crime was committed or not. Assange won't even show up to the trial. If he's so sure he didn't commit a crime, it ought not be a problem. From what I've read it's pretty hard to convict people using the existing rape laws in Sweden, since you need a lot of evidence and stuff.
- nirvana 14y ago
  I think you missed my point. My point is that a crime was not committed, based on the present facts. The law itself criminalizes a non-crime. I'm not saying trials are unnecessary, I'm pointing out there isn't any dispute on the basic facts of the case. In almost every trial there is- the prosecution says he did it, the defendant says he didn't. Here both sides say the same thing about what happened. IT is the law that is the crime, but the law will not be put on trial if there is a trial. (They don't even do that in the USA anymore, even though that was the foundation of our system.)
  - kalleboo 14y ago
    You don't need facts to be in dispute for there to be a case. E.g. in a patent lawsuit nobody's debating that Android doesn't have slide to unlock. The debate is if it's an infringement. Similarly, here the trial isn't what he did, it's if what he did was unlawful. Obviously someone thinks it was, and someone doesn't.
  - rprasad 14y ago
    It's good to know that you, single-handedly, have decided that no crime was committed based on an incomplete knowledge of all of the facts of the case. There is a reason we have criminal trials: it is to allow for the exposition of all of the facts of the case, not just the ones selectively released by the prosecution or defense. And, based on my reading of the facts currently available, it sounds like Assange may have been guilty of rape by fraud, if he misled either of the women about why he was not using protection. As to your final, comment: even a cursory glance at the news will suggest how ridiculously untrue it is. Laws, even those that have been on the books without issue for decades, are regularly challenged by defendants in the U.S. The trial court then holds a hearing on the law itself. Only after the challenge to the law has been resolved does the case proceed to trial on the substantive issues.
- artsrc 14y ago
  > Assange won't even show up to the trial. If he's so sure he didn't commit a crime, it ought not be a problem. Assange thinks he will be convicted of a crime. He thinks he will end up being imprisoned for the rest of his life in the United States for releasing secrets. The issue is not Swedish rape laws, it is Swedish extradition laws.
  - kalleboo 14y ago
    > The issue is not Swedish rape laws, it is Swedish extradition laws. Agreed. And that's what we should be discussing, not the rape laws.
three4s 14y ago
>I don't have 46 minutes to spare on a strong headline, but I will say this I can't be assed to properly asses the situation so let me give you my uneducated opinion. Fix'd
- nirvana 14y ago
  Oh, sorry, I am not uneducated. I have read a great deal of accounts on this issue back when the charges were first leveled. I have heard the story from both sides in interviews, saw the tweets, looked into the charges and the law itself. I have no idea whether this program is good or not, but there is a key point about the situation, and I made it. I find it interesting that you assume that because I didn't watch this particular program I'm "uneducated".... yet you have no problem giving me that derogatory characterization without actually showing where I was in error on anything I said. This isn't reddit. Yet.
  - three4s 14y ago
    >This isn't reddit. Look how intellectually superior I am to everyone else. Fix'd
    - nirvana 14y ago
      Generally responses where you mischaracterize what someone has said are not preferred on this forum. That is what I'm saying, and you continue to do it. Effectively, you're just calling me names. In this example, you're claiming that I'm saying I'm "intellectually superior" as a way of implying that I don't have any argument other than being smug. In doing so, you cut out my actual explanations and have ignored my arguments. If you're going to disagree with me, I have no chance to even understand why, unless you explain your position. You have not done so.
      - three4s 14y ago
        Why, this the internet is serial business for you huh?
mtgx 14y ago
The video shows how the first woman even accompanied him to other events the next couple of days or so and tweeted about it. That doesn't exactly sound like what a woman who was "sexually assaulted", let alone raped, would do. And he slept at her place again after that, too.
michael_nielsen 14y ago
Please don't write a (top-level) comment if you don't have time to read the article. EDIT: The parent comment has now been edited to remove the original starting sentence: "I don't have 46 minutes to spare on a strong headline, but I will say this...".
- loceng 14y ago
  It's interesting to get a perspective of what a sample of the general population might believe though - unless we should start censoring people, though that's not a great road to go down either.. probably worse than trolling even..
- nirvana 14y ago
  I did read the article. I saw nothing in it that contradicts my position. I haven't seen any statements from others that contradict my understanding of the facts. Your comment doesn't provide me any understanding of your disagreement with my position.
  - deleted 14y ago
    [deleted]
  - michael_nielsen 14y ago
    Your original comment began by stating "I don't have 46 minutes to spare on a strong headline, but I will say this...". You have since edited that out. So you appear to have read the article after writing your comment. On your last sentence: I didn't comment on your position one way or the other.
gadders 14y ago
I don't think your reading of the offence is correct Certainly the UK Extradition Judge in his first hearing thought he had a case to answer, and had the offence occurred in the UK it would probably be classed as sexual assault.
- nirvana 14y ago
  How can consensual sex be assault? Even in the UK?
  - loeg 14y ago
    The same way as in this case… sex under false pretenses is not consensual; i.e., it is sexual assault / rape. An example of this might be pretending to be someone's wife to sleep with him. While this might appear consensual to you, this is sexual assault because the victim may have chosen not to consent if he had been given the truth at the time of the assault.
  - mootothemax 14y ago
    How can consensual sex be assault? Even in the UK? Assange is alleged to have had sex with one of the women whilst she was sleeping[1]. That is very much considered rape in the UK. [1] http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2010/dec/17/julian-assange-q-and-a http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2010/dec/17/julian-assange-q...
deleted 14y ago
[deleted]

belorn 14y ago

Small cited section from the article: "You only need to look at the way that Red Notices are used around the world. Red Notices are normally the preserve of terrorists and dictators. The president of Syria does not have a Red Notice alert. Gaddafi in Libya, at the same time Julian's arrest warrant was issued, was not subject to a Red Notice but an Orange Notice. It was an incredibly... it was incredibly unusual that a red notice would be sought for an allegation of this kind." And the allegation is accusation of sexually assault of the lowest degree. The lowest. Accusations. If Anders Breivik fled out of jail from Norway, he would be unlikely to receive the same high international legal attention that Assange got. It things like that this that causes people to loose trust in the legal system, especially the Swedish legal system.

mootothemax 14y ago
Red Notices are normally the preserve of terrorists and dictators. The Wikipedia page says that red notices are: Requests (provisional) arrest of wanted persons, with a view to extradition.: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interpol_notice http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interpol_notice From the page, I can't work out what other notice would have been appropriate in its place. I do, however, have a massive headcold today, so please let me know if I've missed something obvious :)
- belorn 14y ago
  The appropriate method is to issue an arrest, then using informal channels to the UK police asking for assistance. Interpol notices are for extreme rare exceptions. If one would to be used for any common crime where the accused has left the country, the list would become useless. We would end up with a list somewhere around 200 000 - 1 000 000 people, not 7,678. It somewhat like bringing in tanks, bombers, and a nuclear missile in handling a shop lifter running away from the store. It might work, but appropriate action it is not. Equal to the law it is clearly not.
rprasad 14y ago
That's not how interpol notices ("red notices") work. They are simply notices used for requesting the arrest of criminal suspects by members of Interpol. Syria is not a member of Interpol, nor is he currently detained by any member of Interpol. The same was true of Gaddafi. Consequently, no Red Notice would be issued for either of them. Note also that Julian Assange's crime is not just sexual assault. His crime also consists of attempting to flee to avoid arrest. Flight will trigger an interpol notice regardless of the underlying crime.

damian2000 14y ago

How solid is the claim in this video that US Grand Jury #10GJ3793 is for wikileaks? FYI there's a link here to something associated with it as well... http://www.forbes.com/sites/andygreenberg/2012/07/15/wikileaks-grand-jury-witness-publishes-first-account-of-prosecutors-questioning/ http://www.forbes.com/sites/andygreenberg/2012/07/15/wikilea...

chrisacky 14y ago

Just read the article (it takes about 30 minutes). This was the best account that I've read of the entire situation and has now educated me on to the "dragnet" that surrounds Julian Assange. The TL;DR summary is that everything points to Sweden having being coerced at every juncture (by the US), and the Swedish police failing constantly. ---------------- I'd never actually been clear on what the "sexual assault/rape/molestation" charges were with Assange, but from the transcript, these charges were filed after two women Anna Ardin and Sofia Wilen went to the police to seek advice if they could compel Assange to take a STD test since they did not use a condom during sex. It's unclear from the transcript, but from what I have read, these two women knew that he was sleeping with both of them. Both of the women went to the Klara police station in central Stockholm, however, it is mentioned that Ardin had gone along primarily to support Wilen. Ardin had been frequently in the company of Assange. She had previously described him as such a "cool man" (Twitter). They also arrived and left together at a Crayfish party (equivalent of a cocktail party). Ardin was sharing accomodation with Assange and had refused an offer from someone else for temporary accomodation. The day after the accusation of rape and molesation Ardin sent a SMS saying : "I've just spent some time with the coolest people in the world". SMS text messages were also exchanged between Sofia and Ardin, which showed that the two of them knew of the relationship between each other and Assange. Ardin responded to a friend who was looking for Assange : "He's not here. He's planned to have sex with the cashmere girl every evening, but not made it. Maybe he finally found time yesterday?" The Swedish police, totally railroaded the investigation. Interviews have been leaked with Assange, and Wilen commented initially "that she became so distraught she refused to give any more testimony and refused to sign what had been taken down.". Assange went freely for interview to the police station and was released without immediate charge, and was free to travel. Almost immediately there after, another warrant was issued for his arrest. Eventually, it was also upgraded to a "Red Notice". To put it into context, a red notice for such a trivial charge with a previously willful and responsive person is unusual. > The president of Syria does not have a Red Notice alert. Gaddafi in Libya, at the same time Julian's arrest warrant was issued, was not subject to a Red Notice but an Orange Notice. It was an incredibly... it was incredibly unusual that a red notice would be sought for an allegation of this kind. It's alleged (from the transcripts), that Sweden has frankly always been the United States' lap dog and it's not a matter we are particularly proud of. The Swedish Government has... essentially, whenever a US official says, "Jump", the Sweden Government asks, "How high?" Assange's legal team are clearly trying to point out that US is coercing all of this behind the scenes so that he can then be extradited from Sweden and face trial for conspiracy to commit espionage. > The burden should be on the United States Government to say, "We are not planning to prosecute Julian Assange". If they just gave that assurance, I can guarantee you that Julian Assange would go to Sweden tomorrow.

Draiken 14y ago

Amazing how legal systems are made to bend at the will of biased government interests. If the leaks from Assange were from North Korea or any US "enemy", he'd be getting diplomatic immunity or any other kind of law bending to protect him. The worst thing is, it's not just the US. The US just has more power to do so. This world is damned.

youngtaff 14y ago

What all this stuff ignores is that it would easier for the US to get him extradited from the UK than it would be for them to get him from Sweden.