4 ms·

What did past demagogues and dictators have to gain? It always turned out awful in the end, but concerns over that didn't stop them or their supporters. Trump

by _yb2s 2y ago

What did past demagogues and dictators have to gain? It always turned out awful in the end, but concerns over that didn't stop them or their supporters. Trump appears to have no stable ideals, he seems to be only interested in attention and appearing successful. He's previously tried unsuccessfully to launch into politics from the left, right, and center but eventually found traction with this new movement, so he doubled down and played the demagogue after a lifetime of being the epitome of the elite. Ultimately there is a narrative that regular people are doing bad economically because of a few specific groups of people, and that this can be fixed by dehumanizing, terrorizing, and persecuting these people. They will need an all powerful leader not constrained by laws, opposing politics, or human rights to "solve the problem." Of course people think his actions are "aligned with getting America the best deal" or else they wouldn't want to help install him as dictator. Trump seems to have gotten pretty far along this path already. He appointed his own sycophant supreme court that ruled him above the law and unprosecutable. He failed at trying to overthrow an election, but managed to get away scott free by intimidating people out of doing their jobs, and eventually pardoned everyone criminally convicted of participating. He was convicted of 34 felonies in a trial by jury, but received no sentence. Now he's experimented with simply announcing the 14th amendment of the US constitution invalid by executive order, and will see if he gets away with it- if so, I think that qualifies as being successfully installed as a dictator.

twodave 2y ago
Honestly there are too many parts of what you wrote that I disagree with to bother writing much of a rebuttal. The people spoke about the border and other cultural issues. They spoke about the justice system and its targeting of Trump. You can be for strong borders and safe spaces for the majority of people without being for “dehumanizing” people. So that to me is disingenuous. I’m not likely to change your mind on these things, so what I’ll say instead is to look at what he is actually doing geopolitically through the lens of a declining world, which is what we are about to be experiencing as literally every other port country in the world begins its population decline.
- _yb2s 2y ago
  > You can be for strong borders and safe spaces for the majority of people without being for “dehumanizing” people Perhaps one could be, but these people are not- their rhetoric about immigrants is based on hate and dehumanization, and the entire narrative that immigrants are harmful economically and culturally is a lie. Moreover, it is a red herring that causes people to ignore all of the real reasons people are struggling - so nobody will take actual steps towards solving any real problems- and those problems will continue to get worse as a result. I refuse to be like the Germans who said "davon haben wir nichts gewusst" - "we knew nothing about that." I will not participate in dehumanizing, persecuting, or abusing other people, and I will do everything in my power to stop them. > justice system and its targeting of Trump He has Narcissistic personality disorder (NPD), and he cannot accept responsibility or fault for anything- even crimes he was found guilty of by a jury. I have experience with people like that in real life and can spot it from a mile away, and I think our society would be a much better place to live for everyone if more people could spot this, and had some awareness or "antibodies" against emotional manipulation in general. Lastly, thank you for being able to disagree with me in a calm and respectful manner- that is a rare thing online nowadays.
  - twodave 2y ago
    I can definitely understand. I actually think immigrants are necessary for our future, but I want them to follow our laws and not just have an open border. When my generation reaches retirement age the rest of the world will already be crippled more or less, and we will need the supplemental workforce that immigration can provide. Politics can definitely get heated. I have always thought that you can get far even with people you strongly disagree with by assuming the best of their motives. Thanks for engaging with me :)
  - A4ET8a8uTh0_v2 2y ago
    << their rhetoric about immigrants is based on hate and dehumanization, Have you actually talked to anyone, because this reads like a bumper sticker. I will speak for myself. I am an immigrant, and I can tell you that while I am nervous for relatively obvious reasons, I also recognize that the inflow of illegal immigration is ( was? ) too high ( even official stats for illegal crossings are crazy ) to not piss off existing population. Under normal circumstances, few would give a fuck about a kid overstaying on their school visa, but all that has been institutionalized and normalized to the point, that the population chose an extreme to correct it. There is no hate. There is simply a cold, harsh calculation in most people's heads and goes something like this: is there enough resources to support my family? No? Then where are the resources going ( cuz I already pay enough in taxes )? And most people, normal people, when faced with a choice of saving their family or some nameless crowd will choose their families. >>> justice system and its targeting of Trump >> He has Narcissistic personality disorder (NPD), and he cannot accept responsibility or fault for anything- Both statements can be true at the same time. Both states and feds threw everything they could at him and effectively failed. The 34 felony count - a talking point that is being trotted out regularly - probably being the prime example of this. For example, do you remember what type of felony it is and on what shaky grounds it was bumped into a felony? Do you remember the mugshot and misplaced glee it generated? At that point, I was already talking about Democrats' inability to read the room; that the felon label ( even if it is successful ) will not be useful this election cycle, but no one was listening. More amusingly, it seems that a lot has closed their ears further ( even though there was a brief moment of introspection caused by the election result ) again. Only difference now is that the marching orders have changed from 'felon' to 'nazi'. It is tiring and predictable. << I refuse to be like the Germans who said "davon haben wir nichts gewusst" - "we knew nothing about that." I will not participate in dehumanizing, persecuting, or abusing other people, and I will do everything in my power to stop them. Do what you will. Believe what you will. You seem to have already fallen into the 'he a nazi and nazi bad' camp and I have zero intent to change your mind at this point ( my conversations with people pre-election made it clear to me some of it is rather pointless ). << people to ignore all of the real reasons people are struggling Maybe.. just maybe if you focused on that part, you could get people's attention. But hey, nazis!

by _yb2s 2y ago

twodave 2y ago

Honestly there are too many parts of what you wrote that I disagree with to bother writing much of a rebuttal. The people spoke about the border and other cultural issues. They spoke about the justice system and its targeting of Trump. You can be for strong borders and safe spaces for the majority of people without being for “dehumanizing” people. So that to me is disingenuous. I’m not likely to change your mind on these things, so what I’ll say instead is to look at what he is actually doing geopolitically through the lens of a declining world, which is what we are about to be experiencing as literally every other port country in the world begins its population decline.

_yb2s 2y ago
> You can be for strong borders and safe spaces for the majority of people without being for “dehumanizing” people Perhaps one could be, but these people are not- their rhetoric about immigrants is based on hate and dehumanization, and the entire narrative that immigrants are harmful economically and culturally is a lie. Moreover, it is a red herring that causes people to ignore all of the real reasons people are struggling - so nobody will take actual steps towards solving any real problems- and those problems will continue to get worse as a result. I refuse to be like the Germans who said "davon haben wir nichts gewusst" - "we knew nothing about that." I will not participate in dehumanizing, persecuting, or abusing other people, and I will do everything in my power to stop them. > justice system and its targeting of Trump He has Narcissistic personality disorder (NPD), and he cannot accept responsibility or fault for anything- even crimes he was found guilty of by a jury. I have experience with people like that in real life and can spot it from a mile away, and I think our society would be a much better place to live for everyone if more people could spot this, and had some awareness or "antibodies" against emotional manipulation in general. Lastly, thank you for being able to disagree with me in a calm and respectful manner- that is a rare thing online nowadays.
- twodave 2y ago
  I can definitely understand. I actually think immigrants are necessary for our future, but I want them to follow our laws and not just have an open border. When my generation reaches retirement age the rest of the world will already be crippled more or less, and we will need the supplemental workforce that immigration can provide. Politics can definitely get heated. I have always thought that you can get far even with people you strongly disagree with by assuming the best of their motives. Thanks for engaging with me :)
- A4ET8a8uTh0_v2 2y ago
  << their rhetoric about immigrants is based on hate and dehumanization, Have you actually talked to anyone, because this reads like a bumper sticker. I will speak for myself. I am an immigrant, and I can tell you that while I am nervous for relatively obvious reasons, I also recognize that the inflow of illegal immigration is ( was? ) too high ( even official stats for illegal crossings are crazy ) to not piss off existing population. Under normal circumstances, few would give a fuck about a kid overstaying on their school visa, but all that has been institutionalized and normalized to the point, that the population chose an extreme to correct it. There is no hate. There is simply a cold, harsh calculation in most people's heads and goes something like this: is there enough resources to support my family? No? Then where are the resources going ( cuz I already pay enough in taxes )? And most people, normal people, when faced with a choice of saving their family or some nameless crowd will choose their families. >>> justice system and its targeting of Trump >> He has Narcissistic personality disorder (NPD), and he cannot accept responsibility or fault for anything- Both statements can be true at the same time. Both states and feds threw everything they could at him and effectively failed. The 34 felony count - a talking point that is being trotted out regularly - probably being the prime example of this. For example, do you remember what type of felony it is and on what shaky grounds it was bumped into a felony? Do you remember the mugshot and misplaced glee it generated? At that point, I was already talking about Democrats' inability to read the room; that the felon label ( even if it is successful ) will not be useful this election cycle, but no one was listening. More amusingly, it seems that a lot has closed their ears further ( even though there was a brief moment of introspection caused by the election result ) again. Only difference now is that the marching orders have changed from 'felon' to 'nazi'. It is tiring and predictable. << I refuse to be like the Germans who said "davon haben wir nichts gewusst" - "we knew nothing about that." I will not participate in dehumanizing, persecuting, or abusing other people, and I will do everything in my power to stop them. Do what you will. Believe what you will. You seem to have already fallen into the 'he a nazi and nazi bad' camp and I have zero intent to change your mind at this point ( my conversations with people pre-election made it clear to me some of it is rather pointless ). << people to ignore all of the real reasons people are struggling Maybe.. just maybe if you focused on that part, you could get people's attention. But hey, nazis!